A while ago, while living in Mississippi, someone asked me if I am black. Took me by surprise and after looking at the census categories, I was appalled by the way US government measures race/ ethnicity. So, I am asking all Yelpers a basic question - what would you check off on a form that asks for your race/ ethnicity?


For a long time we were taught that ethnicity is a social construct and race is somehow more intrinsic to our being. When we start using race as a proxy for socioeconomic status, that fabric gets torn - stereotypes are born.


Many researchers and evaluators have paid scant 'professional' attention to recent advancements in human genomics. This has tremendous untapped potentials and certainly implications. I have a friend who recently got his genetic testing done and found out that he has more close relatives in his deep ancestry in West Asia and the Middle East than in his native country (Louisiana, USA). In fact, according to the current database he is more closely related to the Turks and Pashtuns (they might have shared an ancestor as close as just a hundred generations ago) than his French last name in the same Y-Haplogroup. He faithfully and routinely notes himself to be 'Non-Hispanic White' on forms that follow the US Census categories. In fact, I know of my fellow Indians who have undergone genetic testing and found out that they are more closely related to European Caucasians than anyone else. Should they mark themselves as "white" in the Census data?


If you grow up in Asia, you learn that Syrians are Asians as are inhabitants of two-thirds of the Russians. According to US Census categories, if you are from Russia, you check White. If you are from Iran, you check White. If you are from anywhere in Asia, east of Afghanistan, such as neighboring Pakistan, you check Asian. But wait, there's more - if you are from Siberia which is way east of Afghanistan, you check White - Wow! So race is not only a social construct now, it is so because a particular branch of government told you so.

Does anyone else this is ridiculous? When was the last time that you used the race/ ethnicity information for a purpose other than to examine some kind of deep rooted disparity? I am very curious to hear of examples where it wasn't so, or at least, upon deeper examination does not turn out to be so.

I think they ask on the Census form because it is the source of data used to measure these disparities.  These are more a function of how people are categorized socially than their true genetic backgrounds.  The Census is the largest, and thus one of the most useful sources of statistical information on race, economic status and a variety of other factors.

I'm white.  Just plain pasty white.

I'm glad I'm plain white/Caucasian or however they call it, so I don't have to go thru all these paranoids. Check whatever you want next time they ask you to, I don't think it matters

Our ethics, morality, and laws are way behind technology and science, Vamsi.

I self-identify as "chose not to check this box" because I believe in racial equality. I understand they are attempting to measure diversity. I think those boxes fail in every way and refuse to cooperate with an obsolete, useless system.

If I had to check a box, I would check non-hispanic white or caucasian because I am descended from western and eastern european immigrants as far as I know.

I also sometimes tell people I don't like that I am Jewish Catholic, just to watch them frown and try to wrap their mind around the concept.

I agree with you partially, Kathleen. I agree that census is the largest but I do not think it is the most useful (at least for research purposes). I am concerned about the fact that this kind of census measurement will lead to data that cannot be trusted. Being in the research field, I find it a struggle to attribute health behaviors to a specific race/ ethnicity because we do not measure them correctly. I do not feel comfortable saying something such as "Asian women between the ages of 15-24 have higher suicide rates compared to black or Hispanic women of the same age group" because "Asian" is not a reliable measure if you consider the census definition.

I think there needs to be a better system. That's all. I am still marking myself as "Indian/ south Asian/ Asian/ other" depending on what options are listed in the form. I do not have a choice.

I look plain, pasty, irish/scandanavian white, but I'm of haplogroup J, found heavily concentrated places such as Russia, Turkey, Syria and Iran.  But I can only trace my relatives back to the early 1700s in scandanavian countries and the British isles - the haplogroup information goes back many thousands of years, and I can't articulate the level of accuracy in the test.

I just check off white/caucasian, non-hispanic, but I sometimes think of my genetic roots when asked to click off a race.  I dated an indian guy in college who checked off caucasian, but I thought of him as asian.

When you get down to it, we're all just a bunch of africans.

I'm a mutt, and always check Caucasian. My wife is Mexican/Hispanic. But sometimes she checks Native American. It's all the same to her.

As mixed race marriages occur more and more often (my nephew & niece are half-Mexican), the checkbox approach becomes less relevant. I heard the next census will allow you to check more than 1 box. Growing up Ukrainian in Chcago, we were taught by our patriotic teachers to pick "Other" when available and state on the blank line: "White - Ukrainian" to give the ethnicity some presence in its mass representation in this country.

Justin W - we need to hear from you...

I'm pretty sure my stepfather's family was "passing for white" but I didn't ask when I was 10 and it's too late now.  He looks like an even whiter Lionel Richie.

Haha...he does look like Lionel Richie!  I'll never look at him the same way.

All together now...

"Say you...say me...."

I remember hearing someone talk about this topic as part of a stand-up routine, but it was actually pretty thought provoking.

What if instead of race categorizations we just made a device that measured skin darkness.  You aren't "black" but rather "86" on the scale.  You aren't "olive skinned" but rather "42".  You aren't "white" but rather "15".  Then you take a look at affirmitive action and other forced equalization efforts and what do you get?   A segment of the population getting preferential treatment in a meritless system:  "Must have a skin darkness index of 75+ to apply".   Ooops... now we're back to the very system we were trying to avoid in the first place.

They used to have the "paper-bag" test in social clubs.

My friend is a total white boy, but he tans so dark and has blue-black hair, so we refer to him as our Wexican friend. Good times.

Vaughn - I'm going with africans, because I define human as the animal that evolved after the common land mass broke up.  But I'm up for some good worldbeat jams any time.

For census purposes I'm white, but what should I put for my children who are biracial?  Some say race doesn't matter, but I work at a pharmaceutical company and know otherwise.  Drug studies show that race/ethnicity factor in a great deal when ti comes to efficacy of drugs.  What might work for you won't work for me.  The new medicines that are being studied are being targeted to match your dna to get maximum efficacy.  It's actually pretty cool stuff.

Oh, I forgot to say this.  When I lived in Chicago I was applying for my son to be accepted at the magnet schools.  I checked the "white" box in the predominantly "black" neighborhoods and checked the "black" box for the schools in the predominantly "white" neighborhoods.  I know that they have to fill their quotas and wanted my son to have the best possible chance.  It actually worked too.  I will definately play both sides when it comes time to apply for college scholarships for them.

I worked in a hospital years ago and race in that context is part of a person's medical history. I recall (perhaps incorrectly) Native Americans being more susceptible to renal diseases/kidney failure, for example.

If presented a check box, I check white or Caucasian. If given a blank, I've been known to put "human."

I'm half Mexican, half mixed European white, and I usually mark whatever I think will benefit me more. Like on the PSATs, I didn't qualify to become a National Merit Scholar, but I did qualify to be a National Hispanic Scholar. I'm not really sure how they decide those.

I hate those boxes. I'm equally both.

One of my radical changes if I were to get elected dictator would be to ban all government classification by race or native language.  Ethnic background could be taken into account, but that is not the same as race.  For example, if the term African-American is used to denote descendents of slave and freemen of color whose ancestors have been in North America for hundreds of years, then how could Barack Obama be considered African American?  Instead, he is an American of (partial) Kenyan descent.  Just because Mexicans, Cubans and Puerto Ricans all speak Spanish, why should we consider them together for anything?  They are all separate cultures.

I also read that skin color is a really stupid way of grouping people genetically because it will mutate fast as needed by the climate.  I'm sure the darker folks who wound up in Scandinavia in the stone age probably got rickets and the lighter ones who stayed in Africa probably got skin cancer.   I remember hearing that the folks who became the Finns were quite dark until about 3,000 years ago.

Race is a really moronic idea and is the basis for racism, an even more moronic one.

"Kristen, for the better future for your kids, I'd suggest to put them as "white" when filling out the forms."

Mesum, in a word, hogwash. In this day of Affirmative Action, so-called minorities have a better chance of getting a job or scholarship if they check anything but 'white.' Especially if they can also check "female" and "handicapped." *I say so-called because populationally speaking, I believe there are fewer whites than blacks, hispanics, etc.

I know, because I have been the hungry, pregnant wife whose husband was denied a job and the white student who was denied a scholarship because there were quotas to fill. The color of my skin has not given me an advantage.

White helps in a social/connection context, but not in an application form context.  Getting in the door is harder, but once you are there, hidden biases are on your side.  In study after study, the performance of whites has been perceived as better on various tasks compared to other races when the evaluator was informed of race before evaluating results.  Look at how there are dramatically more women and minorities in symphonies since blind auditioning (where the musician was behind a screen) than before that change.

Also, since networking is such a vital part of getting into higher-level interviews, the fact that most people tend to "stick with their own" in social/church contexts matters as well.

Once you get past a certain age/level of experience, those check boxes don't matter as much and the other stuff does.

I'll continue to check whatever will benefit them

i'm with k.o. plain pasty white....now, i believe myself to be a minority..esp. in these warm months when all you who tan, can...us fire crotches and nextodead skin tones suffer in silence while we mop up the spf spilled throughout our house because we go through a bottle a week and it just drips off my skin in the summer...where's my rights...i'm a burn victim and not that type...

John C...awesome movie..How did they not know that C.Thomas Howell was not black as he so tried to be?

i would say that im a honky, it's how i truely identify myself.  if someone were to call me a cracker or white bread, i'd be deeply offended at their use of such venemous hatewords.

I got over the whole race thing when checking boxes back in middle school.

I would check random boxes each time I was asked.  Sometimes I was black.

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So, I am asking all Yelpers a basic question - what would you check off on a form that asks for your race/ ethnicity?
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I'd leave it blank or decline to respond.

Every single fulltime job that I've applied to online asks that EEOC question.  It claims that its optional but I worry that your application is tossed out if you choose "refuse to answer" or they assume that only a "middle aged" white male would answer that way.   At least I'm old enough to sue for *age* discrimination. ;)

Look at my pics, what race do you think my husband is. Unless you read some of my reviews I bet you won't get it right.

When a person asks for not-so-nice reasons,I tell them I am a human and leave it at that. I have had someignorant folkds ask me what my niece and nephew "are". I say they are beautiful children and no more.

Yes, i mark down as a Nordic non Sino-franco pigmentationally challenged dirty white boy.

We use race ALL the time. Specifically, we group people by race and poverty level to determine if they would use our services.

We also use race and ethnic background for our PAs. We find that people respond better to those from their own community.

Why do I have to categorize myself as NON-HISPANIC caucasian? It does not really matter to me...just seems that if there is a HISPANIC caucasian box,  there has to be if there is a NON... Am I right? I am actually Norwegian and Bohemian. I hate those boxes mostly because they are obsolete and are oxymoronic. Really, what is a non-hispanic caucasian? Oh, wait I guess it is me. Unfortunately, I get to play no race cards with that. Just a white girl.....

wait...i said part of that wrong...if there is a non-hispanic caucasian box shouldn't there be a hispanic caucasian box as well? Just all seems silly to me....

Laura, the way US census measures race is silly in entirety. You are not the only one who thinks it is ridiculous. I am with you on that.

I personally would like to click "other" and write in "The Brown Magic" but that is just me

I'm half white....I put mixed now

When I was a kid, growing up on US Army bases, the only choices on forms were black, white, and other; so I was "other" for a while. Then they added "mongoloid". (By this they meant "Asian")  Greeeeaat. Then they put Asians together with Pacific Islanders. What....??? Now they've separated us out again. Good grief.

As Vamsi pointed out in his initial post, genes and appearance don't necessarily go hand in hand. I read an article many years ago by a computer scientist who, after examining the facts about race, decided to write in "MUTT" on all his forms. He related a weird tale of being placed under suspicion when he needed security clearance, being interrogated repeatedly because of his "stance". He didn't think he was making a political statement at the time, but he was.

We are all "mutts" to one degree or another. Race is a myth. Race is a lie. Race is a tool for those who want to keep certain groups "in their place".

Joseph, being proud of what I am doesn't mutually exclude the right to indicate when something is deemed irrelevant or none of another's business.

Joseph - I didn't pose a question. I posted the one from the OP, then responded below that.

John C. - I don't take the U.S. Census. If they want to fine me, so be it.

Joseph, please PM me the number of your dealer.  Thanks.

A PM is a private message and dealer is the person from whom you purchase your drugs.

Joseph, don't assume anything about my political sentiment. I am not an American citizen who elected your government officials.

And I didn't indicate you said I lacked a right.

I find it incredibly rare that it comes up in formal settings (i.e. census), but I don't really care either way, I just check white. Not white? check whatever. None of the apply? check other. It's probably the easiest part of the SAT's... at least for me. My name's kind of hard to spell...
It only seems to usually come up at parties/non proffesional settings, to which I say: "Sheeit... I'm 'mer'can..." (It doesn't work unless you pronounce it sans "A" and "e"). "No, really, what are you?" "White." "but... what kind of white?" "the kind that'll kick your ass if you don't shut up and get me another beer."... that usually works.

GDmitt...how did Joe L. get in on this discussion. Now it is all about him again and his suicidal reviews.  Please Joe L. get of your soapbox and stop taking everything sooo seriously. There is noone in your head but you and your other personalities we DO NOT know you at all...but from what you post most want your pontifications to STOP. Get over yourself, get a grip, get some help, hell, get a prostitute if that would make you feel better. Just leave the message boards out of your ramblings.

This is about race. I ACTUALLY am a non-hispanic caucasian by census standards. that is what I am to them, but I do not go about my daily life thinking how grateful I am that I escaped the Hispanic box. I know I am white....I am whiter than most people on the planet. I even won a whitest legs contest at the South Side irish parade. Doesn't get much whiter than invisible....but the point is that you did not even get it, Vamsi, however understands where I am coming from and since he started the post that is really all that matters to me.

We are all mutts???  What if you are 100% of whatever you are???  Are we saying mutts as in, thousands of years ago, we mixed???

Teddy, my brother, my love......it's so wrong.....but it feels soooo right.....

As my daddyw ould say, talking to people like Joe L is like trying to teach a pig to sing. You WASTE your time and piss off the pig.

Joe, in case you missed it, in this story, you are the pig.

Is Joe that guy who deleted his account last week?  Walter, was it?

I thought maybe he came back with an alias...This is all so stupid...it's Yelp people!!!!  Can you read this...  YELP!!!

We aren't sitting at the UN, determining whether to intervene in a genocide...

We should have a "Who's your crush on Yelp?" thread.  The world would be a happier place.

Done

Done

Free speech means that the federal government does not have the right to restrict speech.  Anyone has the right to go on a street corner, publish print media or create web sites/blogs that say what they like.  Some exceptions exist for public safety (fire in a crowded theater) and damaging others through lies (libel).  

No corporate or civil entity is required to publish the speech of any individual.  Any employer has a right to create speech limitations as a condition of employment (confidentiality, speech that may appear to be on behalf of the organization, appropriate office behavior, etc.)

And no one has to like what you say or listen to you.

On application I only get the choice of white/Caucasian.

I am 40% Cherokee Indian as well as Irish, German, and Italian.

I can put in white and I never put in American Indian because I don't believe someone like me is entitled to any benefits for being American Indian.  I grew up Middle class in the burbs, and when I gt old enough I went to see a reservation and saw how the people were living and decided that they need all the help they can get, and people like me who grew up financially OK should not ever take anything away from them.

I love my heritage and am very proud of it.  My grandmother was American Indian, my great grandmother was 100%, My grandfather was also part .  

I don't car what your Race/Nationality/Heritage is BE PROUD OF WHO YOU ARE!  Who you are in that scope is something you should take pride in.  If your born here your an American, no ifs ands or buts.  This is a fact.  But don't forget your heritage, its what makes this country great knowing we all have differences that set us and our culture apart from the rest of the world.

Just an FYI for anyone who has ever wondered about the White: non-Hispanic box you might also be interested to know that often times there is a black; non-Hispanic box as well, or at least it is becoming more common. The reason why...

Look at my husband's pics, and you will see. He looks black, maybe Indian, but wait his first language is Spanish, now you're really confused right. He is Colombian American, therefore he is considered Hispanic, yet every time we fill out documents he has to correct people. Like when we filed for our marriage license they put Black, and he refused to sign it until they fixed it to read Hispanic.

No, Joseph - won't eliminate the word "mutually." It applies.

"Now wait a minute, g.g. Where did I mention anything that suggested that I believed you were an American?"
--
Your contextual use of "our duly elected government".


" g.g., when I direct a question to you, I always type "g.g." OK?"
---
And when I put a comment above my post in quotes with a dividing line, the top is the 'question' and the bottom is my responce. That doesn't mean I'm addressing the person, however; sometimes it's just responding to the thought or issue. Thanks for clarifying, though - there are many g.g's here so I might have gotten confused.


Mandee -- Hispanics can still black, white, or a host of other combinations in terms of race or descent. It's true that this ends up with a typical either/or in America.

Oops -- looks like he's gone.
For now...

g.g. - Interestingly too is the fact that my husbands family, all the same "color" of skin, actually spans a broad range of these combinations in their skin tones. His sister in the summer actually has auburn hair from the sun, and his cousin whose parents are darker than him are lighter skinned and one even has hazel eyes, so it just goes to show that no one can assume simply by someone else's complexion what background they are.

Indeed. I've observed many shades of 'black', as well as hair texture and colour regarding eyes or hair. I have acquaintances with blue, green, grey or hazel eyes in various parts of the world, including America. Some have been asked if they wore colored contacts or if they had hair weaves.  Those with more obvious Caucasian features were presumed to be mixed, whilst those with more typical features were considered "pure". In reality, the latter also had diverse ancestry.

It goes back to that whole bit about how so many are of mixed ancestry despite broad assumptions. "Human" works for me..

Quite often I respond to the question what race is your family with "Human" and then when they look at tme like I'm a smart mouth I say, "Do you mena to ask me what family heritage I have? If so, I'm an Irish, German, English, Native American, Eastern European Jew who has married a Colombian American with both African and First Nation ancestory, but you can just mark other if you prefer."

I tend to answer the question on the Census because I still think that census data allows us to measure discrimination and progress against it in this country.  How can anyone prove a point if statistical data isn't available?

Socially, people usually say, "Are you Irish?" when they hear my name.  They never did that when I had my married name.  Anyway, I know they're asking about my heritage, not my nationality, so I'll say half-Irish/half-Polish.  I see no harm in it, and I think learning about how much of a person's heritage their family retained is interesting.

The only problem is that the census and similar statistical information is flawed because they do not take into account the fact that an individual can be of multiple ancestory. For instance, my children would be able to mark, White, Black, Native American, and Hispanic, but they are generally not allowed to do that so they have to mark other most of the time. My personal favorite is when they mark other and have to specify and the write-in "all the above" and sometimes are given a hard time by teachers.

Indeed, selection bias, illusory artifacts, flawed methodology, etc. The Census house of cards won't fold on the basis of my abstinence.

When it comes to discussion with others, that is clearly another matter and my responce rather depends on circumstances.

I think we have a long way to go before we would have to worry about that