4.5% has been added to your bill....

4/16/2008 Gary "aka Gaz" E. says:

WHAT? That's feckin' cheeky. How's about they sort out their employees from the markup they're slapping on their food?!

4/16/2008 Eric "This Space Intentionally Left Blank" M. says:

I think it is a load of BS. The worst at the places the write 'instead of raising our prices, we are including a separate 4.5% city tax to cover health insurance for our employees.'  OK, so you're raising your prices then.

4/16/2008 Brye "you'll never guess what i just ate" L. says:

i want to know more about the health care that the workers are getting before i give my $$

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4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

These places are often run on very tight margins, or are losing money.

So its logical that they'd either raise prices, or tack on this 4.5% for health care.

4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Jeremy: thank you.

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4/16/2008 Scott S. says:

seriously?  Where did you go that did this

4/16/2008 rommy g. says:

I think this is really stupid.

It shouldn't be the explicit responsibility of the consumer to pay for the healthcare costs of the employees, it's the responsibility of the business to pay for the healthcare of the employee.  This should be considered an operational cost of the business and the business should raise prices accordingly.

4/16/2008 Karen K. says:

That's what I love about dining out in a lot of foreign countries....tax is included and tips aren't expected!  The price on the menu is literally what you pay.  Imagine that!

4/16/2008 Viola P. says:

4.5%?  That's huge!!  I've been reading about dollar surcharges and stuff, but 4.5% could be really high.

I am just curious as to what's stopping some restuarants from actually profiting off of this.  Providing absolutely the bare bones insurance that they're legally obligated to do and pocketing the rest.  Also, and yes, I suppose I could look this up, is this for full time employees only, or all?  I could see an unscrupulous place fiddling with an employee's hours so they never actually qualify...

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4/16/2008 Jennifer "ergo" L. says:

I think they're doing it this way to point out that they're not raising prices "just because" - but for a very valid cause.  As a waitress all through college I certainly had to keep my fingers crossed that I didn't ever need any serious medical attention.  I think it's about damn time people in the service industry are offered benefits.

4/16/2008 euge "fanfuckingtastic" l. says:

why didnt you vote against it when the fucktards supervisors brought this up?

as a consumer i dont mind it. if i have the luxury to eat out that often, 4.5% shouldnt matter.

as a business owner, its fucking ridiculous that sf supervisors are making it nearly impossible for locally owned business to survive.

4/16/2008 Brye "you'll never guess what i just ate" L. says:

nicely said rommy!

4/16/2008 Brye "you'll never guess what i just ate" L. says:

nicely said rommy!

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4/16/2008 Chris C. says:

In a city where probably an majority of people believe in Universal Healthcare, I'm surprised this is even an issue.

If people are griping about 4.5% or the flat dollar fees, how do you ever expect to fund UHC?

4/16/2008 Teal "not new here" H. says:

I kind of like it.  It raises awareness and also provokes discussion.  Honestly, 4.5%?  BFD.

Taking it out of the tip makes you a first-rate A-hole in my book.  Yes, take a city-legislated increase out on the waitstaff.  Way to miss the point.  And, they'll still be taxed on your absent tip.

"Karen K. says:

That's what I love about dining out in a lot of foreign countries....tax is included and tips aren't expected!  The price on the menu is literally what you pay.  Imagine that!"

And healthcare is a basic need that is filled by the government in many foreign countries as well.

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4/16/2008 Amy "www.maisonaime.blogspot.com" Z. says:

I understand the need for it o the restaurant's side because I think that a restaurant would be the most difficult business to operate and make a profit, especially in this city.  And with the state of the economy, times are only going to get rougher for them.  As a courtesy to the customers, they should post in advance on their menus or even a sign at the host station that they impose this charge.  I imagine that this surcharge is going to have a negative impact on gratuities.  People who may have tipped 15%-25% before will probably take it down a notch.  Sounds like servers in these estabishments will pay either way.

4/16/2008 matthew f. says:

Hey guys, this healthcare is only for people that live in the city, and its for everyone, not just the restaurant staff.  So if you as a patron, don't have coverage.... its for you!!!!

There was a story on CBS marketwatch that the Steps of Rome is charging 5.4% as their surcharge.

If you don't like it, don't dine out.  After all, enough people supported the measure to pass it.

If they would have just jacked their prices..... this thread wouldn't even have been started.  Instead you have a chance to rail about health care.

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4/16/2008 Karen K. says:

Michael "The Dragon Slayer" M. says:

Those folks at Gary Danko must be getting some bomb-diggity health insurance.

------------------------------ ------------------------------ ----

Exactly!  This is what I don't get....wouldn't health insurance cost the same for every employee (assuming you're getting the same basic plan)?  So if Gary Danko is raking in an extra 4.5% on all their checks vs. let's say a place like Denny's, what does GD do with all the extra money?  I highly doubt their employees are getting some sort of premium package.  Wouldn't a fixed fee make more sense than charging a percentage?

4/16/2008 Fräulein "Don't make me hand you your ass..." J. says:

They should raise the prices on their menu enough to cover the increased cost, so its hidden yet justified.  

Tacking on a charge on the bill is ridiculous.  But then again, so is your suggestion that the cost of their health insurance should come out of their own tip.  

The fact a restaurant is trying to provide healthcare for their employees is a step in the right direction.  Usually they just cut the employees hours back 'just' enough to avoid the requirement of providing them healthcare and the workers get screwed either way.

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4/16/2008 CINDY K. says:

I think it's a rather clever move on the part of restaurants to highlight the fact that they're being forced to pay these healthcare costs for all of the city.  This talk thread wouldn't be here if they'd just quietly absorbed it into their overall price structure.

4/16/2008 frisco j. says:

actually, i like it a lot, and i don't mind that the cost appears as a surcharge. it gives me satisfaction knowing that i'm making a small difference in helping the restaurant workers get health coverage.

4/16/2008 matthew f. says:

Also, different restuarants are charging differing percentage.... which in reality, hoping they are honest about it, would be enough to cover just the insurance.  The lowest I have seen is 3%, with the highest at 5.4%.  The average being around 4%.

It is indeed an attempt to show that they are not just raising prices, simply to raise prices..... read some Yelp reviews, enough Yelpers bitch about prices (my favorite are the ones that complain about a pizza joint selling a whole pizza at 10-14, and calling that expensive).  

Fuel surcharges.... well that is a charge to let you know why the price is increasing.   If fuel prices drop, the surcharge goes away.

Basically, do you want to know what you are paying for or not?

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4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Chris C. - good points.

Mike, this would cause a price increase of roughly 5% for many places, so some owners have chosen to explain why their prices have risen. Other business owners may chose to simply raise prices. Another cohort may simply eat the cost.

It's America: we have free choice. Is it a political statement in the city that believes in Free Money? I don't know.

4/16/2008 frisco j. says:

funny how everybody wants universal health coverage, but nobody wants to pay for it.

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4/16/2008 Chris C. says:

Michael "The Dragon Slayer" M. says:

It's not that, Chris. It's the principle of a PERCENTAGE increase listed as a surcharge. Shit, why don't they just have a dishwashing surcharge? Why don't they have a social security surcharge or an organic menu surcharge?
________
Michael this is not a new conversation.  We've seen this thread about SF restaurants charging for healthcare before.  Hell there's lot of surchages out there.  Ever look at your cable, PG & E, and phone bill?  I don't see people complaining about those items.  How about staying at a hotel or rent a car, you usually get dinged with a surcharge?  Again not much complaining about those items either.

But in rehash thread about getting dinged a surcharge while dining out in SF (that IMO should surprise anyone anymore) then there is outrage and outrage over all things, paying for healthcare which is ironic considering how pro-UHC the people of the Bay Area seem to be on the issue as long as it doesn't hit their wallets.

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4/16/2008 matthew f. says:

I know a particular restaurant owner that explained the workings of the 'healthy san francisco' this way.  Basically for every employee you must contribute a certain dollar amount to the city health care fund, roughly 250.00.  If you have a health care plan in place, then you can subtract the amount of that premium from the 250 that you would normally pay.

So if your plan costs 150/month for 10 enrolled employees, you now need to kick another 1000/month to the city.  If you have an additional 10 part time employees that are not enrolled, well send the city 2500.

The reason for the varying percentage, is that each place has to analyze their check average against the number of employees, and the whether or not they are enrolled in a health care plan.

4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

Fine to raise prices, but a message like that is bullshit.  I used to be self employed in the service industry, and I had all sorts of new expenses that arose each year.  I rose my prices, period.  No one needed to know the reason why, although I would gladly tell them if they asked.  And yes, some of this was for the cost of insurance--liability, health, and otherwise.

In my opinion, a note like that does nothing more than make the consumer bitter about the issue of health care.

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4/16/2008 matthew f. says:

"Basically, do you want to know what you are paying for or not?"
**********

Uh.. yeah... an that's my point: I'd like to know what I'm paying for BEFORE I end up with the bill for it. I'd like to know that, gee, the price on the menu plus 15% tip is going to be the cost of my meal.

so then why aren't you complaining that sales tax is itemized on bill?  I assume you tip, well maybe I shouldn't assume, would you prefer that simply added in.

I know a good number of places of fixed price menus, that might be an option for you guys.

4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

Ugh...should read *raised* not rose

4/16/2008 Chris C. says:

Michael "The Dragon Slayer" M. says:

I am paying for food.
________
So I take it that you complain about being charged sales tax too when dining out?

4/16/2008 Dennis "will work for licorice" A. says:

I'll gladly pay that if it means people have adequate health insurance.

If you gripe about paying an additional 4.5% at dinner then maybe fast food is more conducive to your financial situation...

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4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

Posting the amount of tax applied is one thing, but other than that I think it is absurd to itemize a restaurant bill by the costs to the business.  If that's the case, we should should we also see how much the business pays for their own liability insurance?

4/16/2008 matthew f. says:

well said Dennis

4/16/2008 Fräulein "Don't make me hand you your ass..." J. says:

5 minutes ago matthew f. says:

Basically, do you want to know what you are paying for or not?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~
I don't need the costs of running their restaurant broken down on my bill.    Their menu prices should just reflect how much their quality of food is worth and should cover their projected costs for the running restaurant.  Thats all I need to know.

Protesting local law in the form of outlining it on a food bill only runs the risk of hurting their own employees and their tip margin - not to mention, tacky.   Their employees should have healthcare.  Period.  

As a taxpayer and consumer, you'll pay for it one way or the other - either on your food bill, or in the form of the rising costs of social services covering the medically uninsured.

4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Or if you don't like the surcharge, you can dine in Oakland, Walnut Creek, or Lafayette.

4/16/2008 Tien L. says:

http://blogs.wsj.com/h...

My problem with it isn't the amount or percentage, but that it's randomly applied.  So, some restaurants will charge it, while others don't?  Why?  I'd rather have the price of food raised, then see a restaurant whine about it on the bill.

4/16/2008 BB Q. says:

Cindy K:

I think it's a rather clever move on the part of restaurants to highlight the fact that they're being forced to pay these healthcare costs for all of the city.

============================== =================

It seems far more passive-agressive than "clever".  This is we call "overhead", and it just happens to be part of the cost of doing business in SF.  I don't want to be reminded that a restaurant is resentful of having to pay for UHC--it's petty.  It makes me resentful.  I'm inclined to not want to eat at places that throw it in my face.  

I'm curious to know if restaurants are going to tell us that salmon dishes cost more because the Chinook season has been cancelled on the West Coast.

4/16/2008 matthew f. says:

maybe they should itemize the bill out further.

If this were a home loan or car repair, most customers want it broken down.  I assume that if a restaurant brought you a slip of paper with an amount on it, and nothing more of what you owe you would complain.  I would assume that you would want to see how many glasses of wine you had, the entree, oysters, etc.

4/16/2008 matthew f. says:

I would venture to guess, that Salmon will be soon disappearing from menus.

4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

How Yelp threads degrade.

Michael M wrote to Dennis A.: "Are you illiterate? No one here is saying it's too expensive."

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4/16/2008 tiffinie "mc" t. says:

euge "fanfuckingtastic" l. says:

why didnt you vote against it when the fucktards supervisors brought this up?

as a consumer i dont mind it. if i have the luxury to eat out that often, 4.5% shouldnt matter.

as a business owner, its fucking ridiculous that sf supervisors are making it nearly impossible for locally owned business to survive.

******
yeah! what euge said!!

but hasn't this been discussed ad nauseum, like, weeks ago??

4/16/2008 Tien L. says:

It's just that the amount they charge is so random.  Sometimes it's a flat 1$/person charge, sometimes it's 4 %.  If this applied to all restaurants, I wouldn't mind.  Raise the price of food 4% to cover costs.  Yes, healthcare should be under costs.  Don't add a "tax" and put the blame on the city.

4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

I don't see anyone hear arguing with paying the extra amount.  I only see people with an issue with the message it sends by reflecting it in the bill.

My family was in the restaurant business for many years.  There are so many factors that go into a price increase.  The fact that employee healthcare is the only one they choose to reflect on a bill seems to somehow smack of judgement.

4/16/2008 Jessica V. says:

I managed a restaurant that added 4% as a result of this initiative that San Francisco voters VOTED for (as Euge said), a fairly poorly worded piece of legislation with good intentions: to supply all San Francisco employees with Health Insurance.  But it's a rather confusing plan, which I would try to explain but I don't fully understand it, maybe this link will help: http://www.sfgov.org/s...

But I'd also like to point out that it only came into effect January 9th, and some group is already fighting to overturn the initiative, so for some restaurants who are hoping it will be overturned it isn't worth the effort and cost to totally change the prices on their menus.

Also, I know a lot of you who are complaining about the charge like to go to independently owned restaurants, and not necessarily eat at Stacks or Chipotle all the time.  Well, health coverage for all employees is a huge chunk on top of an already very high overhead for running a restaurant in the city.

I don't like the charge either, by the way.  But I know that the employees who get gratuities certainly aren't the ones who made the decision to tack the charge on there.

4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

New menus (with the higher prices) would also cost money that many small businesses would have problems shouldering; as well as adjusting back, if there are changes.

Adding 4.5% or 5% to pay for the HC costs seems an easy fix.

4/16/2008 Jessica V. says:

I just said that Mark.  But yes, it would cost more to change menus and a lot of restaurants are hoping the charge is just a placeholder, and that the decision will be overturned.

4/16/2008 Mister J. says:

I've noticed that all the Chinese food restaurants I frequent have just bumped their prices about a $1 or a little more per plate.

Seems like they're getting more money than these restaurants that are 'protesting' the healthcare increase. Think about it, a $50 bill with the 4.5% tacked on is an extra $2.25. But if you order three plates at a Chinese restaurant where the price has been raised a $1 per plate, that's $3 extra. Considering that most Chinese food restaurant plates are around (now) $7.50 per plate, that's $22.50 before tax, $3 or that going towards the worker's health care payment. That's 7.5%, for those of you who are playing at home.

So maybe if these restaurants just shut up, raised their prices a measly $1 per plate, they'd avoid doing damage to their business, AND they'd have more than enough money coming in to pay their worker's health care coverage.

Seriously, it's not fucking rocket science. It's simple economics.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

Mark "Typical Funkalicious White Person" A. says:

These places are often run on very tight margins, or are losing money.
****************************** ********

I cry bullshit on that. I know a lot of people "running" businesses in the city don't know the first thing about business, but I'm not going to believe anyone that says places like Shanghai 1930, the Waterbar, etc. etc. are running on tight margins. They're cooking more than just food.

I like the surcharge, because at least I know none of the skeevy rest. manager types are going to try to dip their hands into it, because they have to pay for the health insurance. I've not seen as high as 4.5% though, the last time I saw it, was at the Beach Chalet; 3%.

The way I see it, if 3% is going to break your back, go somewhere else. As for taking it out of the tip? Only a dick would do that. Come on, 3%. That's $3 on a $100 check. That's nothing.

4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Actually, Mister J, it can get quite complex... it involves 'price elasticity', or lack thereof.

Let's say you need a pint of blood, and they raise the price $500. Can you use something else? Not likely.

But if your dinner bill jumps $20, there are many "substitutes"... less pricey places, fast food, places located outside San Francisco, doing your own cooking, etc.

4/16/2008 Dennis "will work for licorice" A. says:

Michael "The Dragon Slayer" M. says:
Are you illiterate? No one here is saying it's too expensive.
------------------------------ -

No, but i did refrain from pointing fingers - It was a general statement as i'm sure there will be people upset by this, not necessarily a Yelper, but i guarantee some will be less than thrilled about this surcharge.

4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Dave, have you ever seen the turnover rate for these businesses?

4/16/2008 Gregor "Painfully Single" G. says:

I've been noticing that and it doesn't bother me a bit.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

Yeah, I have Mark. I've also had more than a few years in the food industry.

4/16/2008 Perci "When God closes a door, he opens a dress" N. says:

I'd stop going, and then pay Frank Chu to picket their business for being dipshits.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

I didn't know protesting paid so much... Frank Chu was killing plates at Acme Chophouse on Friday.

4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

I've always heard that the food business, as well as bars, had the highest failure rate.

But watch the Gordon Ramsey 'makeover' show, and you see some really dumb moves...

4/16/2008 Peter M. says:

This post violated the Yelp Terms of Service and has been removed.

4/16/2008 Nish N. says:

I like that it's a separate charge. It's a huge cost to restaurant owners as is. I've heard so many people complain about this until I remind them that they probably voted it in themselves.

4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

As stated earlier in the thread, this surcharge is more than likely going to affect the server's tips more than anything.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

Mark "Typical Funkalicious White Person" A. says:

I've always heard that the food business, as well as bars, had the highest failure rate.
****************************** ************
Absolutely, because often the wrong people get into it with the wrong goals. A restaurant is just as complicated as any other business, and some people would do well by understanding that prior to taking the jump.

Hell, one of my friends is trying to raise the money to start a restaurant for his parents (he's almost at there too.)... do they know how to manage resources? No. Do they know how to cook? No. Do they know customer service? No.

THAT is a recipe for failure, and not unique to people getting into the industry.

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4/16/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

A few things:

Note, I didn't vote for this. I'm not from the Bay area, I just moved here 7 months ago.

The 20%+ tipping range that SF bay are seem to take pride in donating to their wait staff is kinda ridiculous. I consider myself a decent tipper, usually minimum 15%, and I'll go higher if service has been amazing, but since moving here, I have rarely seen any average wait staff deserve in the 20% range.

Thus, if I normally give 15%, with the whole amount going to the staff, now I give 10% and they get health insurance, I'm not sure how I am doing a bad thing. Someone else told me waiters in SF make minimum wage anyway, so they're making enough more to survive, tips can bump them up to a very decent hourly rate.

I would have no issues them just raising prices a few % to cover it, and not mentioning it....the restaurant I ate ate served a decent but not spectacular pasta dish for $17.00...it's not like they're charging peanuts...

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4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

Nish N. says:

I've heard so many people complain about this until I remind them that they probably voted it in themselves.
****************************** ********************

Hahaha, democracy inaction!  I've actually had to remind a few people about that as well, it's like they voted, but then forgot what they voted for.

4/16/2008 tiffinie "mc" t. says:

this is san francisco.

mentioning the $$ for mandatory health insurance at the bottom of the menu is their way of protesting it...

4/16/2008 Tien L. says:

I actually agree with Michael.  I have always been a high tipper because I spent years in the service industry.  I tip 20-25% on average; I can't help it.  What makes my blood boil about this tax is that the restaurants are complaining about having to take care of their servers.  I won't change the way I tip.  Hell, I probably will still go the places that are charging the tax.  I'd prefer it if prices were just raised, and that healthcare for workers is a given, not a tax.  I don't want to eat a nice meal and then see at the end of my bill a tax to provide healthcare for my server.  I want to know that my server is being taken care of, especially by his/her place of employment.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

Jordan C. says:

Someone else told me waiters in SF make minimum wage anyway, so they're making enough more to survive, tips can bump them up to a very decent hourly rate.
****************************** *********************
That's true, too bad no one tips the cooks...

4/16/2008 Jessica V. says:

Seriously Jordan?  You tip on average 10%?  Why don't you just order take out, then?

4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

This bill is affecting all the small business in SF, restaurants aren't the only one paying high overhead on slim margins. Raise prices a little, that's what other businesses have had to do.

I don't mind the increases. I do mind that they itemize it out (and, again, only restaurants) and don't tell me that they are charge me at the end. This all happens after I eat. Then it makes me pissy (well, not anymore, but the first few times). When I go in a shop, they don't tack on a surcharge at the end after taxes. I just wish they would fold it in their prices.

Also, stop comparing the US to Europe/elsewhere. I know last summer in Italy, I paid a 1-2Euro fee each time I sat down. They say it was for bread, but I had to pay it even when I didn't want the bread. So, while we don't necessarily pay tip there, there are other charges. BUT, they are spelled out in the menu.

4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

Jordan--

As stated earlier, many restaurant employees did not vote for this for this reason.  Direct pay health care is so expensive that many people on a waiter's salary cannot afford it and do not purchase it.  That was the point of the intitative--to help them become insured..  If you lower their income to compensate for their healthcare cost to you, they are usually losing out.

Again, I am not against the new law new law, or passing the cost on to the customer.  I am against how the increase is reflected because of this mentality it perpetuates.

4/16/2008 Tien L. says:

Jordan--Minimum wage DOES NOT cover the cost of living in San Francisco.  At all.  A survey came out a few years back, and it said that the minimum amount you need to earn to afford living here is around 15$/hour.  Tell me, how does minimum wage at about nine bucks an hour make San Francisco affordable for minimum wage workers?  The cost of living in this city is ridiculously high.

4/16/2008 tiffinie "mc" t. says:

Perci N. says:

I'd stop going, and then pay Frank Chu to picket their business for being dipshits.
*******

maybe Frank Chu would picket the dip-shits who actually voted this measure in.

it's not the restaurant industries fault that most san franciscans didn't understand the impact this measure would have on the food industry (and inevitably, them!) once they voted it in.

4/16/2008 Perci "When God closes a door, he opens a dress" N. says:

If I had my way, bus boys and line cooks should get the lion's share of any tip I've ever left. At best, 10% of the waiters I've tipped deserve even more than $1...

As for this "health surcharge" -- fucktardism, on both sides. Every other business in America must pay for healthcare for their employees. Why are restaurateurs exempt? And why the fuck do they think I have to pay for it instead of them? Oh wait, because they've already trained me to be retarded and partially pay for their salary already, in the form of a tip...

Effing whine more...

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4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

That's what they told me. And regardless, my point was that you are charged immediately when you sit down, so comparing US to other countries is not an apples to apples comparison.

4/16/2008 Fräulein "Don't make me hand you your ass..." J. says:

They should get a standard tip (15% average if good service) AND health insurance.  

The employer is being made to pay the insurance - you're only helping them by turning around and sticking it to their employees to make them pay for it out of their monthly earnings i.e. their tips.

More importantly  - how does your theory hold up if the waiter already has health insurance thru a parent or spouse?  Its not their decision that 4.5% be added to your bill to cover their un-needed insurance...but you'd still be making them pay for it?

You're the consumer - price of living is going up - pay for it like everyone else.  Don't cheat the little guys to save yourself the buck.

4/16/2008 Thömäs F. says:

Most dining establishments change up their menu and/or print it on a laser printer. The cost of changing the prices on a menu are nothing.

I'm all for providing healthcare but find it a bit tacky that only a few places do it. I say bump the entree's by a dollar.

As a business owner in a very competitive market, why take the chance of pissing off a customer because you are one of the few restaurants doing this?

4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

China has a tea and mustard charge.

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4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

Yes MM.  And I should have said "new law" just once there.  Boy I'm fuzzyheaded today.

4/16/2008 Dennis "will work for licorice" A. says:

Michael "The Dragon Slayer" M. says:

"Also, stop comparing the US to Europe/elsewhere. I know last summer in Italy, I paid a 1-2Euro fee each time I sat down. They say it was for bread, but I had to pay it even when I didn't want the bread."

It's a cover charge for the use of a table and the bussing. I've never heard it being referred to as a bread charge.
------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -----------------------------
Cafes and delis charge for table service, restaurants charge for bread and water - Then again,, tips are not required nor are they expected when dining out, so it works itself out.

4/16/2008 Chris C. says:

Dennis A. says:

Cafes and delis charge for table service, restaurants charge for bread and water - Then again,, tips are not required nor are they expected when dining out, so it works itself out.
_________
So basically you're charged whether coming in the door and sitting down (Europe) or getting up and leaving (US).

I guess you're right and it all works out one way or another.

4/16/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

1st off, Jessica, wrote "Seriously Jordan?  You tip on average 10%?  Why don't you just order take out, then?"

Where did I say that? My average minimum was 15% as mentioned, and it will go closer to 20% as service quality increases. If I am being charged an additional 5%, that is GOING TO THE WAITER, why should I not reduce my tip by 5%?

I agree I am not against the law either, just the way the restaurant implemented it. That said, the tipping/restaurant system in the USA/Canada is BROKEN. I am not OBLIGATED to leave ANY tip. I could eat out all the time and leave 0% as I see fit, and nobody is going to be able to do something about it (though I'd be wary of repeat eating at a restaurant where they remember one doesn't tip).

This may sound cold, but saying people cannot make ends meet on $9.00 an hour in the Bay area IS NOT MY PROBLEM. If waiters suddenly all started quitting en-masse and getting different jobs, maybe the industry would wake up and pay them more? It's how capitalism, supply and demand work. A restaurant can't find a waiter? Pay more money.

Perhaps as a society we have just become too used to being to eat out "on the cheap".

4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

1 minute ago Chris C. says:

So basically you're charged whether coming in the door and sitting down (Europe) or getting up and leaving (US).

I guess you're right and it all works out one way or another.
---------------------

For the customer, perhaps.  For the server, not so much.

The service charge in Europe guarantees a living wage for the waitstaff.  In the US servers rely on their tips for that, but are at the mercy of the customer who--as seen here--might decide that they're getting enough of their money based on things like a 4.5% surcharge and lower their tip to a measly 10%.

4/16/2008 Peter M. says:

This post violated the Yelp Terms of Service and has been removed.

4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

I don't have it. (I am a contractor, and was denied coverage because of "pre-existing" conditions, which are BS)

4/16/2008 Chris C. says:

Tsada "The Other Scheming Harlot" K. says:

For the customer, perhaps.  For the server, not so much.

The service charge in Europe guarantees a living wage for the waitstaff.  In the US servers rely on their tips for that, but are at the mercy of the customer who--as seen here--might decide that they're getting enough of their money based on things like a 4.5% surcharge and lower their tip to a measly 10%.
_____________
Well Tsada, a simple solution would be for the Europeans and Americans to raise the minimum wage so that you don't get charged for dinning in (Europe) or that you have to leave a tip (US).

4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

(which, is another bonus to the system...employer-supplied healthcare often means the pre-existing condition thing is moot. I can afford insurance, but can't get covered. It sucks. And it is largely because of one prescription of Ambian).

4/16/2008

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4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

1 minute ago Chris C. says:

Tsada "The Other Scheming Harlot" K. says:

For the customer, perhaps.  For the server, not so much.

The service charge in Europe guarantees a living wage for the waitstaff.  In the US servers rely on their tips for that, but are at the mercy of the customer who--as seen here--might decide that they're getting enough of their money based on things like a 4.5% surcharge and lower their tip to a measly 10%.
_____________
Well Tsada, a simple solution would be for the Europeans and Americans to raise the minimum wage so that you don't get charged for dinning in (Europe) or that you have to leave a tip (US).
----------------

Most definitely.

4/16/2008 frisco j. says:

jordan, are you from montreal? if yes, i think you have just proved that not all canadians are socialists.

4/16/2008 Aaron "No Doi" V. says:

Either they itemize the charge on the receipts or they don't... what difference does it make to you? They're actually being more transparent by itemizing it.

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

If you reduce the tip because of the surcharge you are a total and complete asshole.

4/16/2008 Tien L. says:

I don't have health insurance either.  Again, it's not the health insurance part that bothers, but how restaurants are whining about it.

4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

Aaron V. says:

Either they itemize the charge on the receipts or they don't... what difference does it make to you? They're actually being more transparent by itemizing it.
==
Then they need to put it on the menu so I know before I sit down to eat. It is shady for them to put it in after, and just makes people pissy at the waitstaff over something they can't control.

4/16/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

---
Poe .. says:

"If you reduce the tip because of the surcharge you are a total and complete asshole."
--

A very mature statement that takes into account everything discussed. Things are not so black and white.

---
frisco j. says:

jordan, are you from montreal? if yes, i think you have just proved that not all canadians are socialists.
---

A person's country does not determine their beliefs. I believe in SOME socialist aspects and not others. Assuming all Canadians have socialist beliefs is like assuming all Americans believe in democracy...

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

Peter M. says:

How many people on this tread don't have health insurance?  Easy to bitch when you can go to the doctor if you need to.
****************************** ******
I don't have insurance. Then again, I like that the restaurants are being forced to pay for insurance.

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4/16/2008 rommy g. says:

The people that think that everyone has an unalienable right to healthcare are probably correct.

To think that has to come at "no cost" is misguided.  Someone has to pay for it.

I truly believe it is the responsibility of the employer to cover healthcare, that it should be fundamentally covered in its operational costs, and that that cost should be augmented by an increase in the price of consumer goods and/or services.  To call it out on the bill is stupid.  I don't see the cost of electricity on my restaurant tab, why the fuck should I be see employee healthcare costs?

As a business owner, it is YOUR OWN RESPONSIBILITY to manage the costs of your business and to set a pricing structure that is necessary to cutting a profit.  If the costs are universal, then the impact to overall prices should be universal and no one has the right to bitch and complain.

4/16/2008 Dennis "will work for licorice" A. says:

Just know that the waiters appreciate your contribution - You'll earn Karma points, and contribute to someone's health coverage. Just knowing that makes me feel like a positive contributor to society....

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Jordan C. says:

---
Poe .. says:

"If you reduce the tip because of the surcharge you are a total and complete asshole."
--

A very mature statement that takes into account everything discussed. Things are not so black and white.
--------
You are right.
Reducing the tip based on a surcharge is far more mature.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

Michael, how is that relevant, that portion of code only talks about credit card surcharges.

4/16/2008 rommy g. says:

And with regards to tip, if I consider that the 4.5% should be baked into the actual cost of the good or service (and not called out), then to dock someone a tip because of this 4.5% is also stupid.  I could scrutinize and ask for all components of the bill that go towards paying the employee and docking their tip for each portion they're already being paid, but that's silly and illogical.

4/16/2008 Perci "When God closes a door, he opens a dress" N. says:

I contribute already. It's called paying my freaking bill.

Countries like Japan have it right. Business owners pay real wages, no tips, no surcharges, and customers just pay the freaking bill. End of story.

4/16/2008 Chris C. says:

Annie F. says:

Then they need to put it on the menu so I know before I sit down to eat. It is shady for them to put it in after, and just makes people pissy at the waitstaff over something they can't control.
___________
Agree, they should put it on the menu and if they don't it's shady.  But from what I read, many of them do.  They put it in that micro text that talks about how much sales taxes is going to be and that there is 18% charge on all parties of 6 or more.

4/16/2008

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4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Perci N. says:

I contribute already. It's called paying my freaking bill.

Countries like Japan have it right. Business owners pay real wages, no tips, no surcharges, and customers just pay the freaking bill. End of story.
-------
That is sooooooo un-American! Why do you hate America so much?

4/16/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

Poe .. says:

You are right.
Reducing the tip based on a surcharge is far more mature.
-----

I fail to see what this has to do with maturity.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

"It's deceptive pricing, plain and simple. The price you see is not the price you pay."

That's true, but nowhere in California do you pay the price you see. There are always taxes on top of everything. If you are that against the added tariff, then call your representative man. That's what people did with credit cards. (Granted, probably at the behest of the credit card companies.)

4/16/2008 Perci "When God closes a door, he opens a dress" N. says:

"That is sooooooo un-American! Why do you hate America so much?"

Less than three Poe.

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Here is some light reading on this subject.
http://www.yelp.com/to...

4/16/2008 rommy g. says:

As the consumer, you have no right to complain about "deceptive pricing."  There's no such thing as "deceptive pricing."

In a capitalist economy, pricing can be whatever the hell someone wants to make it.  If someone wants to charge $300 for a candy bar, the let them.  If as the consumer you're complaining about it, don't buy it.  That's how you make a statement.

The fact of the matter is that you all have a choice, so rather than bitch and fucking moan about something you have no control over (nor should you), make your statement by not shopping there.

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

"It's deceptive pricing, plain and simple. The price you see is not the price you pay."
-------
Same with insurance, airline tickets, phone (the extra surcharges and taxes at the end are not in the price of the plan you bought) cable TV, etc.

4/16/2008

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4/16/2008 Jessica V. says:

Jordan C. says:

1st off, Jessica, wrote "Seriously Jordan?  You tip on average 10%?  Why don't you just order take out, then?" Where did I say that?
----------------------------
Hey Jordan, you said it in the above post an hour ago:

"Thus, if I normally give 15%, with the whole amount going to the staff, now I give 10% and they get health insurance, I'm not sure how I am doing a bad thing."

4/16/2008

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4/16/2008 frisco j. says:

Jordan C. says:

A person's country does not determine their beliefs. I believe in SOME socialist aspects and not others. Assuming all Canadians have socialist beliefs is like assuming all Americans believe in democracy...
=================

that's what i was trying to say in a humorous manner, but perhaps you're too wrapped up right now in defending yourself that you didn't get the joke...or the joke just wasn't that funny.

4/16/2008 rommy g. says:

Don't buy the candy bar michael.

We're not a socialist or communist system.  Capitalism is based on the fact that you make something and charge what you want.  If it costs you $.01 and you sell it for $300 and you're making a shitload of money, then why wouldn't you do it.

The consumer should not be dictating the price of something based on the cost.  The cost is hidden to the consumer, and it should not have to be revealed for the consumer to scrutinize and bitch about.  I don't give a shit about surcharges, UNLESS it's regarding a monopolistic product (electric, gas) where  I HAVE NO CHOICE.

The consumer should dictate the price of a product through the laws of supply and demand.

4/16/2008 frisco j. says:

from my observation, most people in frisco tip about:

20% standard
25% good to very good
30% superb, or if you're a regular

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

I wonder if the people that are really so upset by this are upset because the money they spend is going to an individual's health care? They pay gas increases, airline ticket surcharges, taxes on alcohol and cigarettes, over hyped over priced times such as $100 yoga pants from Lululemon and corporate bail outs without a peep but when it comes to something like this they do the chest pounding routine; "I worked hard for everything I have and no one ever helped ME! Why should I have to pay for this? It's not MY problem is Joe Blow doesn't have health insurance" ME ME ME ME ME!"

P.S. Don't worry, the free market will make it all OK.

4/16/2008 Jessica V. says:

I tip 18% standard, up to 25% if it was great.

4/16/2008 frisco j. says:

the official yelp tipping guide!
http://www.yelp.com/ti...

4/16/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

Haha sorry I missed the humor. Too many non-humorous people in this thread.

---

Jessica, I apologize for being unclear...in any event, this was the second time I've eaten at a restaurant that pulled this, and I wasn't paying for lunch. My boss left a 15% tip + the 4.5% for the wait staff. I haven't yet decided what to do in the future. In fact if I note the charge, I may simply eat somewhere else.

--

Incidentally what do you think the reaction would be if I quote the California Civil Code section about surcharges being illegal on credit card transactions and that I'd like it removed please?

:)

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

Poe hit it on the head.

I think it bugs people because it promotes a little bit more social equality.

4/16/2008

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4/16/2008 Perci "When God closes a door, he opens a dress" N. says:

Poe, I don't think anyone here is objecting to the mandatory healthcare fees. I think they're objecting to the fact that businesses are using it as an excuse to raise profit margins. Our healthcare system sucks, but currently, every business must pay for health insurance for their employees. Restaurants shouldn't have ever been exempt -- just like their special lowered minimum wage rate. The tipping system is just stupidity that is easily exploited by the business owners. This "surcharge" is no different.

4/16/2008

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4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Jordan C. says:

Incidentally what do you think the reaction would be if I quote the California Civil Code section about surcharges being illegal on credit card transactions and that I'd like it removed please?

:)
-------
You would have some very clever people with great writing skills turn it all around. Credit card companies can buy some really great talent to make everything look and sound completely different and they can get away with it.

4/16/2008

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4/16/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

Poe .. says:

You would have some very clever people with great writing skills turn it all around. Credit card companies can buy some really great talent to make everything look and sound completely different and they can get away with it.
---

Sorry, I was being unclear again: I meant if I quoted it at the time of the bill being presented to me. "Hey, just an FYI, this is illegal, please remove it or I will not pay the bill".

What are they gonna do, call the cops?

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Perci, I can dig that. I was talking about certain people who do say things like "If it costs too much to live here then it's not MY problem." That's the attitude I was referring to.

4/16/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

I am 100% against it and I am in the business. I charge what I say and have no hidden agendas pop up in the end. My staff will get tipped well because they are professional and prompt. The insurance surcharge should be clearly stated on the menu or just raise your prices 4.5%, most will not realize it and be content with what they get. When I am ignorant to what goes on around me I am happy, you show me I am getting shafted and I am pissed, simple.

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4/16/2008 Chris I. says:

It's a pissing contest between the restaurants and the stupidvisors.  Delfina does it and Epic Roasthouse does it.  Obviously healthcare is a noble cause, but the way some restaurants are doing this is not right.  I am no longer patronizing restaurants that add the charge.  Delfina and Epic are either a) very successful or b) very expensive.  There is no need to pass this cost on to us.

4/16/2008 andy r. says:

The "health surcharge" is meant to vilify workers and build resentment toward the measure.

The same tactic was used by the current FAA to ground hundreds of flights and vilify regulation. After years of lax enforcement of safety standards, they clog up the system with sporadic ON/OFF backlog. "You want regulation and safety inspections - it's gonna cost you with cancellations and increased fares."

I call B.S.

4/16/2008 Thömäs F. says:

I haven't read the entire thread but I wonder if servers are noticing a dramatic loss in tips due to this?

poe, i guess it's how well they hide the taxes in the final bill that matters

4/16/2008 John A. says:

yea that shit happened to me at LUNA PARK they added 1 dollar to each customer..

4/16/2008 John A. says:

thats some straight bullshit...

4/16/2008

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4/16/2008 Shannon "Insufferable Snarkoleptic" B. says:

Typical dinner bill for 2 in the city is ~$50. Could go as high as $100, depending upon your taste. That's about $2.25-4.50 added to your bill. that's not very much if it REALLY would pay for all health care of service industry employees. Most people are accustomed to mentally adding-in tax, so another $3-5 added shouldn't be too difficult, even for the lazy-minded.

But on principle, the current system needs refinement. The law seems written poorly if it is carried out in this manner. Some businesses do this whereas others don't? Too confusing & too likely to fail. Consumers, if they don't like the law, will simply choose to eat at more restaurants that do NOT have the charge. This would seem to unfairly squeeze smaller businesses, but it might not.

Here's an interesting article on the topic: http://www.medicalnews...

Oh, and just because this has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads does not imply there is nothing new to learn or discuss on the matter.

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

andy r. says:

The "health surcharge" is meant to vilify workers and build resentment toward the measure.

The same tactic was used by the current FAA to ground hundreds of flights and vilify regulation. After years of lax enforcement of safety standards, they clog up the system with sporadic ON/OFF backlog. "You want regulation and safety inspections - it's gonna cost you with cancellations and increased fares."

I call B.S.
--------
Ditoo times 1000.
They have done a great job of just that, vilify the workers. Between this thread and the others on the subject, go back and see how many otherwise totally smart and reasonable people are displaying hate and rage over workers "getting something for free."

4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

Poe .. says:

I wonder if the people that are really so upset by this are upset because the money they spend is going to an individual's health care?
==
I was mainly upset because it wasn't on the menus, and because they could have just folded into the cost of the meal like they do all other overhead. This is what all the other small business affected by this law had to do.

And then they tried to overturn it, when we were already paying this surcharge, so how would they have refunded the money?

I have never understood why tax, surcharges, etc. weren't just rolled into the final price. It would make life much easier to those with poor mathematic skills.

4/16/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

It should not reflect on the servers tip, the owner is the one parading the tax. The staff I would believe would be happy to just see prices raised. More tip for them in the end. Win win for the workers.

4/16/2008 John A. says:

I still think its BS...

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

This is, you can choose not to go tot he restaurant that has the surcharge but another place will have just raised prices to cover it and not mention it in their bill or menu. So you are paying for it either way.

BTW, things like rice and wheat have gone up a good 20% lately as pretty much everything else has (fuel). So higher prices in restaurants are not always going to be because of the health insurance.

4/16/2008 John A. says:

that's what i fell owners should do. add a dollar extra to the drink menu.

4/16/2008

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4/16/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

Poe: Good point the distributors such as SWS are adding a fuel charge and I have to pay it. The prices we see now are and should be a refection of our economic state. Has anyone seen the prices go down in produce, meat or seafood at the store? No. Guess what I am not paying less I also am paying more.

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Annie F. says:

Poe .. says:

I wonder if the people that are really so upset by this are upset because the money they spend is going to an individual's health care?
==
I was mainly upset because it wasn't on the menus, and because they could have just folded into the cost of the meal like they do all other overhead. This is what all the other small business affected by this law had to do.
---------
It's how these restaurants are protesting it. They ultimately try to make the workers look bad in this. If an otherwise educated, intelligent person takes away from the tip because of the surcharge (like someone in this thread has said they do/would do) then the restaurant has done a great job of covering their own ass and making the worker suffer by having a reduced tip at the end of the service.

4/16/2008 Shannon "Insufferable Snarkoleptic" B. says:

You have to have at least 20 employees for the law to apply. This won't necessarily adversely affect small businesses. Non-Profits can have up to 50 to loop-out. It would indeed suck to be employee number 20 in a restaurant that couldn't afford this...

4/16/2008 John A. says:

its a bad trend that people are starting. And all the money restaurants make with a bar or a wine list they should be able to afford it. and not charge customers for it.

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Alain K. says:

Poe: Good point the distributors such as SWS are adding a fuel charge and I have to pay it. The prices we see now are and should be a refection of our economic state. Has anyone seen the prices go down in produce, meat or seafood at the store? No. Guess what I am not paying less I also am paying more.
------
I'm a professional gardener. Last month the price of a 4" perennial plant went from $4 to $5 overnight. It takes energy (fuel) to run a greenhouse, it takes fuel to deliver the plant to the retailer. Fuel, fuel, fuel.

4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

ITA, Poe, and the workers shouldn't look bad.

FWIW, my 4.5% surcharge on breakfast the other day was .87$ or something...I had to laugh at that one.

4/16/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

Poe: We are all in the same boat, unfortunately the consumer has to pay in the end, or you and I will be sitting on the corner of Market asking for change. I am not happy about it, but again this is not the first time in history prices have to adjust.

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Chris I. says:

It's a pissing contest between the restaurants and the stupidvisors.  Delfina does it and Epic Roasthouse does it.  Obviously healthcare is a noble cause, but the way some restaurants are doing this is not right.  I am no longer patronizing restaurants that add the charge.  Delfina and Epic are either a) very successful or b) very expensive.  There is no need to pass this cost on to us.
-----------
I know it seems like an expensive restaurant like Delfina is rolling in it, but the operational costs of a restaurant in this city are staggering. And I know it's a very popular and busy place, but popular and expensive don't  always mean a great bottom line, especially in the food business.

4/16/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

Chris I. says:

It's a pissing contest between the restaurants and the stupidvisors.  Delfina does it and Epic Roasthouse does it.  Obviously healthcare is a noble cause, but the way some restaurants are doing this is not right.  I am no longer patronizing restaurants that add the charge.  Delfina and Epic are either a) very successful or b) very expensive.  There is no need to pass this cost on to us.
-----------
I know it seems like an expensive restaurant like Delfina is rolling in it, but the operational costs of a restaurant in this city are staggering. And I know it's a very popular and busy place, but popular and expensive don't  always mean a great bottom line, especially in the food business.
-----------
OK, this is the smartest line today. Against popular belief.... now hold your pants down....... restaurants are not big money makers.
I know it is shocking, but we are defiantly not making what most consumers believe.
I sure as hell wish we were, trust me on that.

4/16/2008 Scott "I can't believe I ate that" L. says:

Just a note: All of the restaurants and vendors are under tremendous pricing pressures. The health insurance premium is simply one more mandate that they're having trouble affording.

Look at the price of gas. Before Iraqi invasion, less that $2!  Now $4 and more. Oil is used to not just ship things, but in the things we package, etc.

Corn prices are through the roof due to misplaced ethanol momentum and gov't subsidies.  Thus farmers are growing more corn than wheat etc.

Most bakeries and restaurants are indeed fighting with vendors to keep costs down but note that EVERYBODY has squeezed as much as they can for 2-4 years!  Think about a bakery... wheat costs - doubled in less than what, about 18 mos?

I've seen a sign in one bakery and it explains what is happening.

We need to complain to our representatives and get them to get off their asses and take actions. This is ridiculous... yes this is a rant, but we need to be in this together folks.

Otherwise our favorite restaurants and bakeries are going to start shutting down!! Any ideas how we can get our representatives to take us seriously as a voting block?  (when they already have big biz special interests?)

Thanks for reading this...

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Alain K. says:

Poe: We are all in the same boat, unfortunately the consumer has to pay in the end, or you and I will be sitting on the corner of Market asking for change. I am not happy about it, but again this is not the first time in history prices have to adjust.
------
Exactly. While prices on goods have gone up 20% and more, most people's raises (if they got one) was 4% this year.
It's at times like these that I love GW. He made the already top 1% even richer and these people are a good 50% of my clients. I suppose their trickle down theory really does work, but only for like 5 people.

4/16/2008 John A. says:

i bag of flower used to be 4.95 for 25LB now its 8.95 WTF!!!

4/16/2008 Sun E. says:

Tsada "The Other Scheming Harlot" K. says:

As stated earlier in the thread, this surcharge is more than likely going to affect the server's tips more than anything.
______________________________ ___

Agreed.

4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

I don't see many people having a problem with the healthcare. I see people having a problem in the way the costs are passed on. It is a pissing contest and a protest, and it is really only resulting in the consumer getting mad. Prices have gone up for everyone, and all business here are operating on a tight margin, not just restaurants. Everyone else has had to fold it into their costs.  Restaurants have chosen to piss people off.

I am all for this bill. Again, as many in this thread have stated, they should just roll it into their prices like everything else.

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Alain K. says:
Against popular belief.... now hold your pants down....... restaurants are not big money makers.
------
Oh Alain, don't be silly. I always hold my pants down no matter what.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

"Against popular belief.... now hold your pants down....... restaurants are not big money makers. "
****************************** *
Right, that's why people spend millions on opening restaurants, and restaurant owners make up a significant portion of SF's gentry.

Poorly managed restaurants are not big money makers.

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Annie F. says:

I don't see many people having a problem with the healthcare.
--------
I've noticed an underlying and at times very obvious anger at the beneficiaries of this law. Honest, it will take time but look carefully at what people are writing on this thread and others like it. There is a definite hostility towards "these people getting something for free" or "if they can't afford health care it's not MY problem." It's kind of like how Reagan got the whole country to hate on the poor for living lavish welfare lifestyles while he bent us all over and screwed the middle class while his cronies got away with murder.

4/16/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

To be honest poorly or properly run they are not big money makers. It is people who love food and hospitality. Most successful restaurateurs made their money else where and just want a place to be proud of and to show off. The real money makers are national chains and a few hip places but that only lasts a short while.

4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

Hmmm...I guess I don't see that when I read. I see more hostility at the owners. I also ignore stupid remarks like, "if I have to pay 4.5% to their healthcare, I will only tip 10%." Actually, that just makes me more mad at the owners for chosing to do a surcharge rather than just fold in the cost.

4/16/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

OK, I am late for the Giants game. Poe I respect your thoughts.
Thanks.

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4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

Funny, were it not for this thread, I would have never thought about taking it out of the tip. (not that I would now, just the idea would have never entered my mind)

4/16/2008 Jeff S. says:

I will never return to a restaurant that puts on a surcharge. I also make it a point to write that on the bill.

I have no problem with a restaurant raising prices to pay for expenses. However....

I see the menu as a contract. You provide me with my food, and I pay the price stated on the menu (plus governmnet taxes plus tip). Changing the prices after the meal has been consumed is a violation of that contract.

People would raise hell if a gas station sign showed a price that looked attractive, but after the gas was pumped, the credit card was charged an extra 20 cents a gallon. Same thing.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

so Jeff, in your own logic, you will have no problem if you went to a restaurant that stated the surcharge on their menu?

4/16/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

I should note they state the surcharge on the menu...though I don't see how this makes it "ok".  What if I sat down and just said "Bring me a BLT and a coffee!" you'd better believe I'd be pissed off.

4/16/2008 Tammy "so over this" A. says:

Reminder: Waitstaff are baseline taxed by the IRS on the amount of tips they WOULD receive based on their customer checks, not on the amount of tips they ACTUALLY receive.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

also let's not forget, every restaurant with more than 20 employees is charging us, not all of them are being up front about it. So what makes it more ok? The ones telling us, or not?

Personally, I think the whole thing is silly, and really a non-issue. Oh man, I have to pay a dollar or two to make sure the people that work somewhere get healthcare.

Big.
Fucking.
Deal.

You pay it everywhere else, just other industries choose to make the charge "invisible" by just building it into their pricing. It doesn't mean it's not there.

4/16/2008 Fräulein "Don't make me hand you your ass..." J. says:

Jordan C. says:

If I am being charged an additional 5%, that is GOING TO THE WAITER, why should I not reduce my tip by 5%?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So why should you assume that the server even needs the health insurance that 'you' are charging them by reducing their tip?  What if they already have insurance?   Its not their choice that their restaurant is charging you for a service the employee may or may not need....funny how your solution only benefits YOU, really.  

You screw the employee, to accomodate the resaurant owner, who is forced to pay for the insurance no matter what.

Thank god Im not in the service industry and have to deal with customers with your rationale.  

Quit being cheap.  Pay the higher cost of living like the rest of us.

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

"Quit being cheap.  Pay the higher cost of living like the rest of us."

Quoted for truth.

4/16/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

Those of you who are saying "Quit being cheap", may I ask at what point would the % charged for health care become unreasonable? Is it 6%? 8%? 10%? What if it is adjustable depending on the profit margins of the food you eat? One restaurant charges 3% and another 5%...why? Shouldn't it be standard?

At what point CAN I get annoyed?

And it's not about being cheap, it's about being charged for something I feel is unjust.

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4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

I think the first step to answering what percentage is ok, would be to find out if all these workers have the exact same healthcare plan, or if each had a different one.

4/16/2008 Karen K. says:

i am a server in fine dining.  i have not had insurance in 2 years.  i'm really thankful that this healthcare coverage went into action because it frankly blows to pay out of your ass when something happens.  like when i got laryngitis, broke my rib and lost my job and had to spend something along the lines of $1300.00 to go to the emergency room and buy meds.  $1300.00 that i didn't really have to spend.  

being a server is not all rainbows and puppies.  you are on your feet for anywhere from 6-9 hours straight, for usually 4-6 days in a row dealing with the public, with the kitchen, with large parties, with bitchy people, with carrying heavy plates and bottles and often cutting yourself on the occasional knife or broken glass.  i have always tried to make my customers feel at ease and cared for and that in and of itself is a lot of work.  i can honestly say that the tips i make are fairly deserved and to punish the workers further by cutting their wages (tips) is frankly, cruel.  no one is getting rich serving tables, and we should be able to see doctors without paying insane amounts of money for it just like the rest of the working population.

just my .02 cents...

4/16/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

being a cook is not all rainbows and puppies.  you are on your feet for anywhere from 6-12 hours straight, for usually 4-6 days in a row dealing with the servers, with the management, with large parties, with bitchy people, with carrying heavy pans, and plates and often burning yourself or cutting yourself on one of your knives.

I probably would have stayed cooking a little longer had tips been shared with us.

4/16/2008 Fräulein "Don't make me hand you your ass..." J. says:

Jordan C. says:

At what point CAN I get annoyed?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~

No one said you shouldn't or couldn't get annoyed...I'm just saying that shorting the waitstaff their tip to cover a charge imposed on you by the restaurant owner is a pathetic solution.  And in my opinion, also cheap.

4/16/2008 Fräulein "Don't make me hand you your ass..." J. says:

Jordan C. says:

And it's not about being cheap, it's about being charged for something I feel is unjust.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
It's not unjust to charge the consumer costs for running a business.  Cost of living increases are full-scale.  Restaurant owners see higher prices from the produce companies due to unforseen weather conditions, gas prices for the delivery trucks, employee benefits...normally they just raise the menu prices.  This is why we don't pay $6 for a steak dinner anymore.  

Why is it all of a sudden an issue with you now?  Because you see it itemized for you on the bill?  Who's pocket should it come out of, the customer or the restaurant owner?  You're clearly saying it should come out of the waiters pocket which blows.  And then again, why should it come out of the owners pocket?  After all, it IS a business their running, not a charity.  Their prices go up, so does ours - its called economy.

4/16/2008 Alex "the endless bummer" K. says:

it's more or less a form of protest.  protesting the responsibility to treat your employees like human beings.

4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

Jordan C. says:

And it's not about being cheap, it's about being charged for something I feel is unjust.
------------------

What is unjust is penalizing an employee for a decision made by the taxpayers and the business owner.

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4/16/2008 Yvette K. says:

There was a great article written in San Francisco Magazine (August) called: "Is San Francisco Killing Its Restaurants?" that deals with this issue. You should check it out.

http://www.sanfranmag....

4/16/2008 Yvette K. says:

Because of the VERY slim profit margins in the restaurant business, many restaurants can NOT afford health insurance for its employees no matter how noble a cause it is. Read the article in SF Magazine I mentioned.

4/16/2008 Yvette K. says:

In general prices are going up. I am not going to expensive restaurants nearly as often as I used to.

4/16/2008 Fräulein "Don't make me hand you your ass..." J. says:

Michael "The Dragon Slayer" M. says:

"And then again, why should it come out of the owners pocket?  After all, it IS a business their running, not a charity."

If my boss asked our clients to pay for our health insurance, they would get a good laugh out of that. What gave restaurant owners the right not to provide insurance for their employees in the first place and what gives them the right now to try and convince me that it's my responsibility to pay insurance for them IN ADDITION to paying the bulk of their salary. No thanks. Buck stops here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Newsflash - your clients DO pay for your health insurance...and your salary, and dental care, and retirement if you have it - the difference is, when they get their bill, its not listed dollar for dollar where their fees are going.  ITS CALLED BUSINESS COSTS and its covered in the price of the product or service!

I agree that the employees should be getting healthcare - I dont agree with the restaurants decision to put it on the bill so the customer can make the determination (out of spite) to take it out on the waiter and reduce the tip because of it.

4/16/2008 Annie F. says:

Do servers have to pay into the pot, as well? For instance, while my old work provided a healthcare option, I was still paying about 80$/month pre-tax (and they were subsidizing the rest). I assume this is the case under this new law?

4/16/2008 Perci "When God closes a door, he opens a dress" N. says:

"Because of the VERY slim profit margins in the restaurant business, many restaurants can NOT afford health insurance for its employees no matter how noble a cause it is."

If they can't afford to pay for health insurance LIKE EVERY OTHER BUSINESS IN AMERICA, they shouldn't be in business, period.

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4/16/2008 KayJay .. says:

Perci N. says:

If they can't afford to pay for health insurance LIKE EVERY OTHER BUSINESS IN AMERICA, they shouldn't be in business, period.
------------

Ditto.

This becomes a larger part of the equation between employee and employer.  Employers look to their employees to be healthy and well.  You can't employ a team of employees you deny or, choose not to provide, health insurance and expect 100% performance and attendance.  When it comes to the food industry you're not only effecting your bottom and the overall health of employees who avoid the doctor when sick because they can't afford it, but the customers that depend on these employees to cook/serve them food.

4/16/2008 KayJay .. says:

That was typed badly.  I'm leavin' dis bitch for the day so I ain't lookin' to correct and edit crap.

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4/16/2008 Edward "Eyewitness" K. says:

Scott "It's just a flesh wound!" L. says:

Think about a bakery... wheat costs - doubled in less than what, about 18 mos?
============================== ===========================
I wonder if we'll start seeing a surcharge for wheat at bakeries and restaurants too??

4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Tien wrote: 'The cost of living in this city is ridiculously high."

You're right... that's why some choose to live in Oakland; some choose Concord; others have roommates. This is what you get with an extremely high Demand, and minimal Supply. Then, add on top of that rent Control and multiple environmental / liberal constrictions, and you further drive prices up.

Anyway, I like the breakout; I wish they'd do it for gasoline, as well.

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4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Dave - thank you.
____________________

Dave wrote:

"7 hours ago Dave "Won For Tea Three" M. says:

"Michael, how is that relevant, that portion of code only talks about credit card surcharges."

4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Mike, I already covered elasticity earlier. *smile*

Extremely High Demand = LOTS of folks want to live in The City

Minimal Supply = maybe constricted Supply would be a better term.

Rent Control (artificially constraining the Free Market), thereby limiting profit; environmental constraints; threats of lawsuits; and other items increase the cost of housing... increase the cost of living in The City.

I don't expect to be able to move to Hong Kong or Berlin, and live in a great place, if I don't have a skill set that allows me to live in such desireable places.

4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

54 minutes ago Jeff "MC Hammer Lifestyle" A. says:

LOOK... they are using this to chode out the servers BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION:

"Some are taking a more direct approach to increase revenue. After the minimum wage increase in 2004, Pastore added a note to the bottom of the menu stating that a 5 percent service charge would be added to the bill. Unlike tips, a service charge is collected by the house, and an owner may use it as he or she sees fit. Pastore deliberately set the percentage low so that diners could deduct it from the amount of the tip. The money collected from the charge is used to pay the entire health-care premium for his full-time staff. At Coi, chef-owner Daniel Patterson has gone even further and added 18 percent to every check, which he divides among the entire staff. Any additional tip is the property of the waiter."
-------------------------

Exactly what I've been saying all day.
Thanks for the proof, Jeff.

For those of you who think that this is a gesture of courtesy by owners thoughtful enough to let you know where your money is going, think again.  It's just a way of sticking it to the waitstaff as well while at the same time making a statement about employer-paid healthcare.  Otherwise they'd find a way to absorb it into the cost of the meal with an overall price increase.

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4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Mike wrote: "The laws of supply and demand only work for abundant goods and services ..."

Do you have a link or source for this gem?

For all I know, the laws of Supply and Demand do come into play even for $1 Million cars...  I'd love to have one, if it fit someone 6'6" (like myself), and if it cost, say, $50,000. Actually, the $1 Million price eliminates 99.9% of potential buyers.

Indeed, the laws of Supply and Demand help to ration scarce goods in our market economy!

Example: When a hurricane hits the East Coast of Florida, folks flee, and a $40 hotel room in St. Pete jumps to $200, the Free Market is working!! Unless a person (and that may include Michael, I don't know) think we should enact "anti gouging" laws???

4/16/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

And Tsada, if Bill Clinton and the Democrats really wanted a Living Wage, why didn't they enact one when they had control of the White House and Congress?

And why didn't they simply peg the Mimimum Wage to Inflation, so that there would be automatic increases every year?

(They didn't do this, because they prefer to keep Minimum Wage on the table, so they can play politics with it for another 20, 30, 40, 50 years.)

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4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Who got banned?

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4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Perci N. says:

"Because of the VERY slim profit margins in the restaurant business, many restaurants can NOT afford health insurance for its employees no matter how noble a cause it is."

If they can't afford to pay for health insurance LIKE EVERY OTHER BUSINESS IN AMERICA, they shouldn't be in business, period.
-----------
Except, many, many businesses that used to cover insurance traditionally have cut it out entirely or have made employees "contractors" or reduced employees hours to make them just under full time so that they won't have to offer insurance. There are Doctors out there who are employed at a hospital but don't have health insurance because they are considered a contract worker.
Tying health care to employment wasn't a very good idea to begin with.

4/16/2008 Ralph "mama tried" C. says:

okay could someone explain this hurrican example to me like i am a five year old, i am trying to understand the point but i lack the cognitive skills to make sense of it all

let me see if I understand there is a normal demand (D) for hotel rooms (S) in St. Pete.  where the downward sloping D curve crosses the upward sloping S curve is the price I would expect to pay.

now lets assume, because economist love to assume, a hurricane hits ECF and people flee to say, hypothetically speaking, St. Petes then this should create a new demand (for the sake or argument I'll call this new demand D prime). Now I could be wrong but it seems to me that D prime will be up and to the right and unless non-hotel owners have some type of magical construction pill that allows them to build new hotels within seconds of the hurricane, I am going to assume there is no change in supply thereby makingt the new market clearing point higher along the supply curve.  

have i missed anything, so can someone explain, again like I am a 5 year old because this economics stuff is hard what the heck MarK Funk.....A is talking about

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4/16/2008 Ralph "mama tried" C. says:

Michael,
In what way shape or form does anti - gouching, serve as an example of " the laws of Supply and Demand help to ration scarce goods in our market economy!"

4/16/2008 Ralph "mama tried" C. says:

is there an edit button gouching should be gouging spelling is not my forte

4/16/2008 Jeannine "neenerbot" S. says:

as a restaurant employee, i personally would rather forgo the lame insurance policy being offered and instead keep my tips. It hurts all the waitstaff and bartenders more than it could possible hurt the consumers, trust me.

4/16/2008 jamila u. says:

I feel bad for people who work in food business, and since our health care system is seriously messed up living a lot of people with no coverage, I sort of am okay with this. I really hope that all that money will really go to health coverage, and will be very upset if they still get nasty coverage and the money goes to other holes. The price at restaurants will go up no matter what. Business is business and it won't survive if there is no profit.

4/16/2008 Gilberto "Fluffy Bunny" Y. says:

didn't they use to put people to death for usury?  fun times.

4/16/2008 jamila u. says:

leaving* ufffffff

4/16/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Seriously, who got canned? There is a post from 3 hours ago that is now a removed user.

4/16/2008 jamila u. says:

probably that "who likes to chat?" virus guy. he was all over the place.

4/16/2008 Tsada K. says:

1 hour ago Mark "Typical Funkalicious White Person" A. says:

And Tsada, if Bill Clinton and the Democrats really wanted a Living Wage, why didn't they enact one when they had control of the White House and Congress?

And why didn't they simply peg the Mimimum Wage to Inflation, so that there would be automatic increases every year?

(They didn't do this, because they prefer to keep Minimum Wage on the table, so they can play politics with it for another 20, 30, 40, 50 years.)
--------------

You're right.  It's all Billary's fault.

4/17/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Mike, so you think raising the price of hotel rooms in the St. Pete / Tampa area, when Demand jumps after a hurricaine hits Florida's East coast, is wrong?

So when a cheap hotel room jumps from say, $60 a night, to $180 a night, that's wrong?

Isn't this a great time for the Free Market to allocate a scarce resource - hotel rooms?

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4/17/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

Another reason the whole tipping system is messed up is because it assumes that it is inherently more "difficult" to serve a more expensive dish than a less expensive dish. It really is more difficult to delivery a $30 steak than a $10 hamburger (Servers please chime in in case I am way off base here).

One server might work an 8 hour shift and happen to sell a lot of steaks that day. Someone might sell a lot of tuna fish sandwiches. Assuming they both worked equally hard, does the tuna fish person "deserve" less money than the steak person? I think not.

The system also sucks for the reasons mentioned: People are cheap. People are assholes. People don't feel that service is worth more than say..7% of the tip. And there's NOTHING THE SERVER CAN DO.

As previously mentioned, the whole system is broken. People should make a living wage, and people should have the right to affordable health insurance.

4/17/2008 Omid "The Rock, Skipper, Urban Zen Master" T. says:

Maybe this'll weed out all the fucktacularly shitty restaurants in SF.

I used to be proud that SF had "more restaurants per capita" than any other city in the world.  

But when half of them are like Cafe Gratitude or Blowfish or Straits, I'll celebrate their imminent failure if cut-throat margins are such a concern.

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4/17/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

Jordan:Another reason the whole tipping system is messed up is because it assumes that it is inherently more "difficult" to serve a more expensive dish than a less expensive dish. It really is more difficult to delivery a $30 steak than a $10 hamburger (Servers please chime in in case I am way off base here).

One server might work an 8 hour shift and happen to sell a lot of steaks that day. Someone might sell a lot of tuna fish sandwiches. Assuming they both worked equally hard, does the tuna fish person "deserve" less money than the steak person? I think not.

Alain K: Nice question. As for the guy in a steak house compared to the guy in a burger joint, experience and time served. Wine knowledge.. food knowledge, understanding the course of service. The difference from a Ford mechanic and a Ferrari mechanic. Each gets paid on knowledge and need.
As for the tuna and steak part of your question in this crazy world it all evens out in the end.
I always wonder when my staff comes crying to me they got a 10% tip on a table but never cry when the next 5 tables give them 20%. In the end if you are a good server and pay attention to detail and actually produce hospitality you will end up over 15% in this area.

4/17/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

I agree, in a really fine restaurant, the professionalism of your waiter can make all the difference. When I was at Morton's for my birthday, the waiter could easily tell us the differences between the cuts of meat, what wines might go best with our meal, and generally made me feel like a millionaire. Service was excellent, and they DESERVED 20% range tip.

But a lot of restaurants sell steak, and at 90% of the non-steak-house restaurants, serving the steak is really no different that serving the tuna fish sandwich.

Most restaurants simply do not provide that level of service though. I've had my share of surely waiters who clearly felt they deserved 15%+ even when they were rude, inattentive and slow.

4/17/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

Ok, that is where the problem arises, as we sit here typing away today from 15 years ago I have seen the service disintegrate. It takes week to hire a suitable server when before we had 20 waiting at the door. Why? The quality of restaurants they start at. "Welcome to Spoons" as they kneel at your table. The old days of being a server as a career has ended they are now waiters waiting for the next thing to come in life. I do not want to offend the few professionals out there I actually would like to commend them. In Europe you go to school to be a server, I know that will never happen here.
Next time you have bad service and are not happy leave your 15%(or what you believe is fair) and explain to the manager what the problems were. Maybe he/she can then try to improve during nightly line-ups and staff trainings the points that fell short.

4/17/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

week should be weeks. sorry

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4/17/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

"Stick to the argument that I'm paying the waiter's salary. I'm comfortable with that one."

You're paying everyone's salary there.

Feel better?

4/17/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

1 minute ago Michael "The Dragon Slayer" M. says:

Sorry Alain. If a server recommends me a recent release California wine to go with a meal, they automatically don't know enough about wine to warrant a huge tip.

And yet that's all they recommend because that's what people want to hear.

So if I know what wine goes with what does that mean I don't have to tip 15%?

Stick to the argument that I'm paying the waiter's salary. I'm comfortable with that one.

-------
Alain: I agree you are paying their salary. the system is set that way, it will not change. What i am afraid of is the attitude that the server only suggested a California wine so he'she is stuck with 13%. At that point what incentive does the server have to provide prompt service.
TIP= To Insure Prompt Service
Give them a little slack for maybe not realizing you have a better palate then most and want to stray outside the norm here and drink a relatively more suitable wine to accompany your meal.
I am happy to see people like you in my place.

4/17/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

Michael "The Dragon Slayer" M. says:
As you said, Alain, most people tip 15% on average. The big difference is that when times are tight, people go out to eat less and order less and waiters get less in tips. It's not the waiter's fault, yet that's his only source of income. There's nothing he can do about it.
-------
Michael, yes it is true the 1st expense to go in tuff times is entertainment and restaurants usually lead the pack.
The same will trickle down in most industries, that is a shame but that is a fact of life.
I hope they(tipped employees)understand money management.

4/17/2008 Dave "Designer of Zombie Dance Party" M. says:

if "tip" does in fact mean: "To insure prompt service", then wouldn't it reason to believe that you would tip prior to service?

4/17/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

Dave "Won For Tea Three" M. says:
if "tip" does in fact mean: "To insure prompt service", then wouldn't it reason to believe that you would tip prior to service?
------
If you gave me a tip before I did anything I would just go home. I made my dollar "bye"

4/17/2008 Ames K. says:

i was at yabbies a couple months ago and it was the first time i've ever noticed the surchange on my bill.  i don't mind paying a tad more to help out with employee insurance benefits, but i agree with some that it should be a flat rate instead of a percentage charge.  

also, i'm ashamed to admit, i didn't tip as much as usual due to the 4.5% addage on my bill. =(

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4/17/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

Michael: I worked in Europe for many years and I like the system better there also, but in Europe the servers went to school to learn their trade. I do not see that happening here.
Tipping is a weird thing to do, it is strange and can feel uncomfortable. I agree with your style and I have a slightly different one.
I am usually at a loss when I am at the Hair cutter place or at the parking place that is when I am out of my element on tipping.

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4/17/2008 Alain "Udderly" K. says:

If it's free valet, I tip $3-5, if there's a charge I tip $1-2 if I have ones.
-----------------
Thanks, I will use your system sounds great to me.

4/17/2008 Karen K. says:

i would just like to chime in that 'healthy san francisco' is not health insurance.  what it does is lets you go to the hospital for emergencies without being ripped a new one.  you don't get a primary care physician by any means...

also, i just found out that in order to procure benefits at the restaurant where i work, i would have to pay $150/mo after 90 days to do so.

4/17/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

BTW, folks, if your waiter gives you a freebie... TIP THEM ON THAT, as well!!!

For example, at Pizza Antica (sp?) in Lafayette, I chatted with a few employees there, and told em it was out first time there... and that we had heard of their LEGENDARY brussel sprout salad... we had already ordered, and we didn't order that item. (I HATE brussel sprouts!!!) Well, lo and behold, they gave us a free entree, and it was amazing... baby brussel sprouts, cored, sauteed with shallots, bacon bits, egg, parsley... it was wonderful!!! Yes, we made sure to tip as if that was part of the meal (though it was free), plus a little more.

4/17/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

I'm going to respond, now, to a little (polite) exchange Michael M. and I have had about the Free Market, "gouging", etc. Here is the basis of our conversation, and I'll follow with an example.
________________________

Mark "Typical Funkalicious White Person" A. says:

Mike, so you think raising the price of hotel rooms in the St. Pete / Tampa area, when Demand jumps after a hurricaine hits Florida's East coast, is wrong? [The example was a room jumping from $60 a night to $180 a night.]

------------------------------ ------------------------------ ------------------------------ ---------

Michael M. wrote:

I don't make the cutoff, the law does. I was thinking more like $6000/night.

Yes, I do. It's wrong to profit from disaster. Anyone with a conscience believes that.

4/17/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Changing prices is a way to ration / allocate scare resources. In this example, a hotel room jumps from $60 a night to $180 a night. What affect does this have?

- A couple that was going to rent a room for a week or two, instead stay with relatives. (A Substitute.)

- Another couple - who had only minor damage on their home - choose to stay home, due to the "costly" $180 room.

- A third couple really needed a place to stay. At the $60 price, they were going to put their son in one room, their daughter in another, and they'd have a third. (They would have rented 3 rooms.) Instead, they now rent only 1 room: their daughter shares their bed, and they put their son in a roll-away bed.

- A fourth couple had no other option - their family is in California, they have no close family in the area, and they realy, really need a room! Their house has been destroyed.

What were the other results of this $180-a-night hotel charge?

1) The last two couples - who really needed a room - got a room! If the room were $60, they may have had to sleep in their car, or have become homeless.

2) The small-hotel owner worked like a dog for 2 weeks, but made an extra $20,000+ for this sudden increase in rates. the couple worked 18 - 20 hours per day. So this "profit from disaster", as Mike calls it - rewards them for their 20-hour days. And they're then able to put a new roof on their hotel, or pay for a year of their children's college education.

This example if liberally borrowed from - yes - Dr. Sowell.

4/17/2008

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4/17/2008 dirk k. says:

Disclaimer: I own 2 restaurants one in SF and one in Oakland. And we don't add a sur charge.
The good people of San Francisco voted that all businesses with over 20 Employees must provide them with health insurance. For a restaurant with 20 employees this will add up to a cost of at least  $72,000 a year if a restaurant makes $1.4 million in sales, at a industry standard, profit margin of 6% the profit would be $84,000 now with the new mandatory cost this restaurant would make $14,000 in profit. For that amount of money would you work 16hours a day ??
Somebody talked about raising prices, Would you pay $7 for a drought beer? $50 for a steak? $10 for fries? I know I would not and I would not be able to look at  myself in the mirror if I where to charge these kind of prices.
The bigger problem is that people voted on something that looked good on paper, but never took time to educate themselves on the cost their vote would add to their daily life... Here comes the bill.... I could tell stories of 10 to 20 restaurants that closed or had to let people go because of this law. Please don't think all restaurants are out to get the guests... We here to provide a service , to bring joy and to make a living for ourselves in the process.

4/17/2008

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4/17/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Michael, I gave a real-world example on how Supply and Demand works to ration scarce resources, which in this case, was hotel rooms.

You seem to resort to mud slinging when someone doesn't agree with your view of the world.

4/17/2008

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4/17/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Dirk, I agree many folks likely didn't think this issue out.

San Francisco is filled with folks who believe in the Free Lunch... they think there is some magic pot of gold somewhere, likely held by some rich white guy... when in reality, from what I know, most businesses are small businesses, stuggling to survive... working 12, 14, 16 hours a day... and half the weekend.

Dirk, did you know this? The city has promised thousands of workers health care for life... it now will cost the city several billion dollars... I think I read 4 or 5 billion. And how much has the city saved for this perk? I think $50,000 ... !!!

4/17/2008 Shannon "Insufferable Snarkoleptic" B. says:

This example if liberally borrowed from - yes - Dr. Sowell.
====================++++++++++ ++++++++++
LOL. A matter of time before the Dr. S-bomb gets dropped by Mark. Typical, but hardly funkalicious. Only book he's ever needed to read, EVER, apparently.

4/17/2008

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4/17/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

I see no cogent analysis here, on your part. Just your making up an illegal act about a car salesman... which wasn't my analogy of how Supply and Demand works.
________________

Michael M's analysis: 'I can't help it that normal people disagree with you, Mark. If a used car salesman rolls back odometers to put his kids through college, does that make it any less immoral?"

4/17/2008

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4/17/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Can you give me a link to where someone charged $6,000 for a $60 hotel room?

Can you give me a link to where someone really charged $500 for sand bags? From a legit source?

In actuality, I've often seen sand bags given away for FREE by municipalities, cities, FEMA, et al, during floods.

4/17/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

You're comparing apples to eggplant.

4/18/2008 Ralph "mama tried" C. says:

Ralph "ELBWDITM" C. says:

Michael,
In what way shape or form does anti - gouching, serve as an example of " the laws of Supply and Demand help to ration scarce goods in our market economy!"
------------------------------ -----------------------
Mark A. said that. You must be new here if you're confusing us. Mark likes to pretend there was no development in the field of economics after Adam Smith.
============================== ===================

No, I've been here quite some time.  you attempted to answer a "question" I had about Mark's logic and because my cognitive skills aren't to strong I couldn't see how your response answered my question.  so then i asked you to explain how your response answer my question about mark's logic.  it is all very logical.

4/18/2008

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4/18/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Information is power.

4/18/2008 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

I've concluded after much thought that I agreed taking 4.5% off the tip is unjust to the waiter, and won't be doing that, however I will have to think twice about eating at an expensive restaurant if they add a service charge.

I'm still tipping in the 15-18% range though, this 20-25% BS that San Francisco people love is ridiculous.

4/18/2008 Greg L. says:

I just want to point out a misconception in a lot of the comments here:

THE SF HEALTH CARE PLAN COVERS ANY UNINSURED PERSON LIVING IN SAN FRANCISCO, REGARDLESS OF EMPLOYMENT. IT IS NOT STRICTLY FOR RESTAURANT WORKERS.

Restaurants are the most visible opponents of this flawed plan because:

a) If you can buy full coverage for your employees from an insurer for less than $250 per employee per month, you still have to send the difference to the city.

b) Most restaurants operating at slim profits with long term obligations such as lease agreements, loan agreements, or obligations to investors can't shut down without losing lots of money. So you have to continue operating even if you are just breaking even or losing a little money. This unexpected mandate comes directly out of operator's pockets if the cost cannot be passed on in some way.

It is an example of incompetence, or maliciousness on the part of our Supervisors to attempt to finance universal health care by tying the funding to employment. This created a disincentive to hire labor, and an incentive to lay off labor.

On a broader point, the conventional wisdom of the last 50 years ties health care funding to having a job, but that is the wrong approach. Our government has been passing the responsibility over to business. If our access to health care is dependent on having a job, or the general strength of our economy, then it will be reduced as the economy suffers or jobs are lost.

Businesses are unreliable sources for covering our needs. What happens when a company goes under, or a restaurant closes? The funds are gone. If we want universal coverage for everyone, we should accept the cost in the form of a tax that is broad based. I think the best answer is an increase in the sales tax.

The $250 million annual funding that San Francisco's plan intends to raise, could be achieved by raising our local sales tax by half a percent. I would have voted for, and gladly would pay 9% sales tax to fund this plan wouldn't you?

4/18/2008 Lisa "Mind-blasting!" T. says:

Everybody on this list who argues in favor of the European system, please consider this. Those poor bastards have a VAT added to their bills, don't they? It sucks either way.

4/18/2008

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4/18/2008 Lisa "Mind-blasting!" T. says:

Hah, but the places you mention, Jeff, have a vigorous "baksheesh" black economy. So there is indeed incentive.

4/18/2008

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4/18/2008 Mark "don't Cry for me Arrrrr-gentina" A. says:

Mike, I gave an example from the real world. Have you every stayed in Las Vegas for more than a few days? Rooms can be $49 a night on Tuesday... and climb to $189+ on Friday & Saturday.

You created a hypothetical scenario that has no basis in reality, or would be an extreme, one-of-a-kind occurance.

4/18/2008

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4/18/2008 May T. says:

Wow - I did not realize there was such a long thread already - read my comment here and give your response

http://www.yelp.com/to...

4/18/2008 Ralph "mama tried" C. says:

21 hours ago Michael "The Dragon Slayer" M. says:

Ralph:

I see. Anti-gouging laws have nothing to do with economics. Mark's statement about scarce goods applies to true scarce goods such as oil, natural gas, real estate (sometimes), uranium, drinking water, etc. When a disaster is involved, the raising of prices to avoid a shortage often results in price gouging. It's a moral argument that most people believe in. People should not profit from disaster.
============================== ========================
and that was my point --- in one breath he was talking about rationing scarce resources, which I have always known to include the items listed above, but never hotel rooms.

4/22/2008 miss b. says:

I agree with what others have said: if it's a restaurant you love, & they raise prices, you'd be more understanding, like "oh, well that's natural, I understand they've gotta keep up with inflation."

The restaurants' attempt to position it as a health insurance surcharge is an unsuccessful attempt to get customers angry at the city & the new law so that maybe citizens will effect change, & the restaurants can say it's not their fault. However, that obviously didn't work, and the restaurants themselves will face the backlash.

Just think of the workers. You probably have health insurance. They're fellow human beings busting their asses for you; they deserve health insurance, too. Health insurance is f---d up in this country anyway. In many European countries, everyone is basically covered & it's not even an issue. Their countries takes care of them. & the people there seem to like it.

4/22/2008 Mike W. says:

I agree with those that think this method is a load of crap. In principal I agree that employees (all citizens, for that matter) should have health coverage. This method of going about it is just crap tho. It should be the responsibility of the employer to sign up a group coverage plan, provide that plan to employees, and pass the cost on as necessary in their prices. As others have already pointed out, those restaurants with high check prices such as Danko, Postrio, etc.. are tacking on MUCH MUCH more than run-of-the mill restaurants. I fail to see how the math involved with this method distributes the cost of what is effectively a universal health care plan at a city level in a manner that is equitable to employees and consumers.

In an ideal world, our federal government would provide universal coverage to all citizens, regardless where or if they work. Then this jenky scheme would never have been put into place.

4/22/2008

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4/22/2008 Priya "peekay" K. says:

well honestly, so now the consumer has to pay almost 20% above the price on the menu?

first of all, the american tipping system is all botched up. almost nowhere else in the world are you expected to tip so much and for just about everything. and on top of that, more surcharges?

shouldnt the restaurants be paying their staff enough to start with?

its not as if our workplaces are going to pay us additional amounts due to this.. and with all the inflation (gas prices, rice price, etc).. WTF???

4/22/2008

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4/22/2008 Melissa "1337" S. says:

slow club has been adding a dollar per diner to the bill and they have a little card that explains exactly what the charge is and why it's on there.  our waiter said that for people who complained, they would remove the charge.  i like that they are so upfront about it.  better than simply raising their prices.

4/22/2008 Holly F. says:

Hello - I work in one of these restaurants - and I don't get the extra $$$ in health benefits.

Only the employees that work FT (mostly kitchen) get that. Practically the whole FOH gets the shaft.

Anyway, just wanted to say it's not fair on all sides.

4/22/2008 Holly F. says:

Plus there's only so much raising to be done on the price of organic, grass-fed, free-range beef (organic veggies, non-farmed fish, etc.) when there's another perfectly nice restaurant around the corner with a comparable product for less (not grass-fed or free-range, that's all). With prices increasing every day, I dare say, you will choose to dine at the other restaurant.

It's a hard place to be in. Restaurants do not turn big profits. It's not glamorous, it's a lot of hard, hopefully honest work.

4/22/2008 John S. says:

It's a political statement by the restaurant owners.  Whenever they raise prices for other reasons, unless they're very drastic, they never explain this as a percentage of the price increase; they just raise prices generally.  They're basically complaining because they don't like the city's mandatory program.  Move your business to the East Bay if you don't like it.

4/22/2008 Steve W. says:

In general, the concept of tipping really stinks on both sides.  It often cheats the wait staff because they're working hard in the hopes that their customers are reasonable, honest, and can do math.

But an extra health insurance surcharge is ridiculous.  Why not a surcharge for the cost of gas, rent increases, the busboy wanting a new TV?

If restaurants need to raise prices, let them raise prices.  Period.

The killer is the extra 4.5% you'll pay on the $50 bottle of wine, which costs $12 at a grocery store.

4/22/2008 Holly F. says:

But wow, that's a lot of restaurants to move to the East Bay.

4/22/2008 John S. says:

Sorry, that came off wrong.  I meant it as, "Restaurant owners, you should move your restaurant to the East Bay if you don't like it."  I didn't mean that patrons should move their business to the East Bay.

4/22/2008 John S. says:

That's my point.  People bitch and complain about the high cost of doing business in San Francisco all the time.  Some of their complaints are valid.  But the fact is that most restaurants want to be here rather than Pleasanton or Castro Valley or San Bruno or whatever (I know San Bruno's not in the East Bay).  And restaurants in general can't be outsourced, as the high standard of living in San Francisco necessitates a huge supply of restaurants.  So they'll complain a lot--and abide by the law.  That's what I love about this city's politics; we can force business to do all kinds of things, and their threats are always hollow.

4/22/2008 Holly F. says:

Re: surcharge on gas, rent increases, etc.

San Francisco was reported as the city in the US that was charging THE HIGHEST PRICE for gas 2 days ago. The cheapest? some city in NJ.

We have an extra emissions tax, and other taxes that San Francisco mandates - which we voted for! This restaurant thing has the same flavor. I think - it's frustrating, but it's the price of living here. And it is great to live here.

4/22/2008 Al "Knee to the Nong" A. says:

Thank god we know how to cook.

4/22/2008 Holly F. says:

by the way, the markup on our wine is modest at 2.7%

i don't know who charges $40 for a $12 bottle. i would consider that some kind of thievery.

4/22/2008

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4/22/2008

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4/22/2008 Holly F. says:

And luckily, people like you do make a conscious decision - to return and be regulars, or not. And that is a beautiful thing that is created. A restaurant will develop its vibe with its staff and regulars. The more goodwill, of course the better in general, and the better for the business, especially through hard decisions and rough times. Some will stay and some must go. It is the life cycle, isn't it? It's still incredibly sad to watch a business die.

4/22/2008 Holly F. says:

Well, that is what they tell us at line-up - I don't actually get to check the invoices. I don't think our wine manager would lie, though. The prices have been rising espeically lately due to incresed cost of shipping, plus the strength of the euro, or the weakness of the dollar.

4/22/2008 Holly F. says:

oh my god, i totally just got gushy about the restaurant business. that was strange.

4/22/2008

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4/22/2008 Holly F. says:

Oh, that's the sad thing about the higher-priced bottles. We don't get to taste those... there's a limit. Wow it must be getting late - I can't give away this much info!

6/2/2008 tim y. says:

of course im a little late ... will not patronize those restaurants that advertise the surcharge:  cafe divine, delfina - total b.s. help me with the list and i will personally see these restaurants not get the biz, because im in the position to do so ... im sorry i have an agenda ... universal health care advocate like cuba and china!!!  only two industrailized nations do not provide basic health care for its citizens - SOUTH AFRICA AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ... a new day coming 09

6/2/2008 tim y. says:

of course im a little late ... will not patronize those restaurants that advertise the surcharge:  cafe divine, delfina - total b.s. help me with the list and i will personally see these restaurants not get the biz, because im in the position to do so ... im sorry i have an agenda ... universal health care advocate like cuba and china!!!  only two industrailized nations do not provide basic health care for its citizens - SOUTH AFRICA AND THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ... a new day coming 09

10/25/2008 Ryan M. says:

I'm against the hcso by far. It's just another typical way of SF chasing businesses out of the city.

I am for health insurance being widely available to people at a very low cost; but if SF is insisting on everyone having some form of insurance/$ made available to them, then the city needs to fund it, not force businesses to do so. As a businessman, I can't believe some of these restaurants and businesses are letting people know that there is an additional XX% charge added to bill for SF Health Care Ordinance. That's just bad and ignorant business! What it tells me as a customer is that they obviously don't provide any type of benefits to their employees. From the customer stand point, I find that to be bad for the company. From my business view, I definitely understand their issue with it, but why in the hell would you want your current and potential long term customers to know you are a cheap boss/business owner who obviously doesn't provide benefits? I understand health insurance is extremely expensive and by far kills business. Unfortunately, it's one the major reasons large corporations outsource their service to other countries.

Rather than letting the world know the company doesn't provide benefits by displaying the additional charge on the receipts, a company should simply include it in the cost of doing business and mark the prices up slightly to cover it. If the product and service is good, I am more than happy to pay a little extra for the product.  I (and I'm sure most people) want it inclusive in the price rather than an additional separate fee. All I should know  by means of the reciept is that I paid a certain amount of money for a product or service. I don't want to know what portion of what I paid went to hcso or any other special fees such as atm/credit card transactions.

10/25/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Ryan,
Didn't you post the exact same thing on a another thread from May and then bump this one to do the same?
Once is enough bro. Twice and you make yourself look like a spammer.

10/25/2008 Thömäs F. says:

jeez, this again???

10/25/2008 Poe "lost my kitty cat" .. says:

Ryan just wrote the same exact thing by bumping another thread on this same subject.
http://www.yelp.com/to...

10/25/2008 Binky B. says:

I am going to let it slide for now because Ryan is supercute.

As for an additional surcharge? I don't know. I guess I'm used to getting taxed everywhere, so if paying a 4.5 percent surcharge means that the employees who are serving me or making my dinner have health care, I'm okay with that.

1/27/2009 Thel "Glutton for punishment!" D. says:

I know this is an old issue... but I just canceled a reservation for dinner after looking at their menu online and seeing a 4% health care surcharge will be added to all checks...

Has anyone else simply not gone to restaurant because of this surcharge?

1/27/2009 Alexis "has zero interest in your bullshit" B. says:

Unless I'm already at the restaurant with other people, I won't go. I think it's bullshit. That's what a price bump on food is for.

But it also tends to be at posher restaurants so I don't have a huge problem avoiding it.

1/27/2009 Jeff S. says:

Most restaurants on the westside don't have the surcharge. Just FYI.

1/27/2009 Thel "Glutton for punishment!" D. says:

It's getting harder and harder to justify living in this shitty...

1/27/2009 Matt "10^400" R. says:

Alexis "Manly McHardon is my FAVORITE!" B. says:

But it also tends to be at posher restaurants so I don't have a huge problem avoiding it.

----

That's what makes me think it's more of a tantrum thrown by management with the intent of hurting employee's tips. If your customers pay $30+ for an entree without a second thought, they can afford to pay the full cost of the restaurant visit.

Hey, why not list *really* low prices and then tack on "service fees," "busing and washing fees," "commercial rent fees" at the end?

1/27/2009 Thel "Glutton for punishment!" D. says:

Matt

The argument can be made that these employees are already making much larger tips... so they can afford health insurance on their own. Things like this hurt the restaurant as a whole... I mean I was ready to do to dinner and spend around $150 or so before tax and tip... but tax tip and surcharge jack my $150 dinner for 2 up to $200.

Granted the surcharge would have only been about $6 or so of that... but it's a matter of principle at this point.

1/27/2009 Matt "10^400" R. says:

Well, buying insurance outside your employer is very different than what you get with a conventional job--if you can buy it at all.  As long as we stick with the employer-sponsored health care model, this is what happens.

But surcharges in general are bullshit. It's a kind of bait-and-switch, and also helps people stay in denial about what things really cost.

1/28/2009 Gil "whoo hoo" S. says:

I support restaurants doing this.  It is becoming the norm, and is a lot more transparent than simply raising the cost of food.  4.5% is too high though - it should be about 3.5% or 4%.  Of course there is no tip on this - you're tipping employees on their health insurance?

1/28/2009 Julian "v. Food" S. says:

Buy a first aid kit for your restaurant, there's your damned health insurance. What's next, I gotta start paying a 10% tax at bars so bartenders can put their kids through school? Give me a break.

1/28/2009 CK S. says:

A couple of ways to deal with this. First, I usually don't tip on the total bill amount, only on the pre tax total. Let's say the bill is $22 total. I tip on $20. 15% or $3.00 for average service, 20% or $4.00 for good service.

Second, I'll tip on the total bill including tax, less 4.5% or 11.5% / 15.5%

Simple.

1/28/2009 Jordan "Saint" C. says:

The fact is the restaurant / serving / tipping system in this country is broken. You are under no legal obligation to tip, and if you never intend to return, there are ZERO consequences to not tipping.

I like the European method where tips are included in the price of the food. That way the wait staff doesn't get screwed, and you pay exactly what you expect.

It's not my responsibility to make up for a screwed up industry...and nobody told you to be a waiter in the most expensive city in America.

1/28/2009 Alan C. says:

I've NEVER seen anything like this before at a restaurant.  If prices of supply (including labor costs) go up, then it should've been included in the food prices instead of being secretly added in the end.

Price of shrimp $5.00
Labor from cooking $18.75 x 0.2 hours
Chef's union fees  + $0.50
Water used to clean dishes $1.25
Tip:  ______

1/28/2009 Alan C. says:

Jordon:  What about those places that automatically add a 18% tip for parties greater than 6 people?

Also, there ARE benefits to the American tipping system.  I'm not sure if they tip bartenders in Europe, but I'm a part-time bartender and I can make $200-400 a night.  I dunno how much my wage would increase from minimum wage for me to make that much in four hours in Europe, lol.

1/28/2009 Coquette .. says:

I went to a restaurant the other day with a large group.  On top of our regular bill, we had the sales tax and then the health tax.  AND on top of that total bill, they charged us a percentage for the tip.

I thought it was pretty shaddy that they calculated the tip by including the sales tax and health tax.