Hot Doug's hit with foie gras fine...

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2/17/2007 Luther "The Warriors did it!" Z. says:

I was at Hot Doug's yesterday, looking forward to enjoying the duck sausage w/ foie gras until some asshole had to call and report him to the city. I didn't think I cared all that much about the Foie Gras ban, but now I'm pissed, for a few reasons:

1. Fuck you for dictating what I can and can't eat. Last time I checked, this isn't Soviet Russia. Even the Mayor thinks its ridiculous.
2. Fuck you for snitching on Doug. He is as good a person as anyone you'll ever meet anywhere and one of the most friendly business owners in the city. What the fuck did he ever do to the nazi sitting on their computer looking for the moment they can rat him out. I hope you are proud of yourself, whoever you are. I hope you get hit by a bus and die a slow, painful death. Better yet, I hope they shove a tube down your throat and force feed you foie gras and you go out like the duck that makes such a savory delicacy.

That is all.

Hot dog joint hit with foie gras fine (Article abbreviated. For the whole deal, cut and paste the link below).

http://www.suntimes.co...

February 17, 2007

Hot Doug's is in hot water with the city.

The Northwest Side hot dog joint, known as much for its thuringer as it is for specials like gyros sausage with creme fraiche tzatziki, is the first restaurant in Chicago slapped with a $250 ticket for offering --- in sausage form --- the outlawed delicacy, foie gras.

"People are actually dying from the cold, and I'm getting hassled because of some sausage," owner Doug Sohn said Friday afternoon, hours after a city Health Department worker ticketed him inside the restaurant. He has been outspoken about his distaste for the Chicago City Council's ban on the fattened duck liver, a controversial food because of concerns about animal abuse.

Even after the ordinance took effect in August, Sohn continued serving it occasionally, and about 6 a.m. Friday, he posted the day's specials on his restaurant's Web site, including "Foie Gras and Sauternes Duck Sausage with Truffle Sauce Moutarde and Armagnac-Truffle Chicken Mousse" for $6.50.

A representative of the Health Department showed up at the restaurant, 3324 N. California, before he even opened his doors at 10:30 a.m., Sohn said.

"I was impressed. I'd like to see them react that quickly to anything in the city," Sohn said. He said he doesn't think the snitch is among his regular customers.

"It's sort of at the point where I don't really care," he said. "If we don't serve it, we don't serve it. I hope people opposed to it are leading ethical and moral lives. And they better not be wearing leather shoes."

2/17/2007

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2/17/2007 molly "skillionaire" c. says:
i swear, it's the dumbest law in recent memory
2/17/2007

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2/17/2007 Luther "The Warriors did it!" Z. says:
New York doesn't have a foie gras ban. Their city government laughed at us for our city having passed this ordinance or law or whatever you want to call it...
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2/17/2007 Joel C. says:
It sucks!! I totally agree
2/17/2007

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2/17/2007 ed "aka luckyeddie" B. says:
now i would be impress if the city would fix the water main breaks that fast..
2/17/2007

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2/17/2007 Luther "The Warriors did it!" Z. says:
Gena, if you find out, please let me know. I'd like to help.
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2/17/2007 Mark S. says:
Oh jees that whole anti-fois gras deal is so lame... Doug's comment about the city's quick response was perfect.

So much emotional BS where this issue is concerned. Personally I'm a staunch opponent of extending human emotions and suffering to animals- to me there's a huge difference between sensing and reacting to pain as a natural instinct, and the ability to psychologically have a sense of ones self and thus, experience the sense of "self" pain or suffer. This sense of self is fundamental to what makes us human- a concept of self and the human psychology that evolved as a result of the complex code/language which our brain processes, and the resulting ability to make art in our own image, recognize oneself in the mirror, etc. Sorry, ducks just don't have it- we are different, and having the debate in our human terms goes to far.
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2/17/2007 S to the izzo F. says:
that totally sucks... that specific dog is one of my favorite hot dogs they serve!
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2/17/2007 Alan "Suburban City Dweller" R. says:
Why does everything have to be related to NY??? Chicago is great city on its own even if NY didn't exist, which wouldn;t be the worst idea.
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2/17/2007 S to the izzo F. says:
the Mayor hates the ban too!
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2/17/2007 Sara O. says:
This whole thing is retarded if only because most other meat that's served is treated like crap while still alive anyway. We pick the dumbest things to fight for when it comes to how we as a society eat.
2/18/2007

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2/18/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
The foie gras is a topping on the sausage.
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2/18/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
James B., You realize that foie gras is a FRENCH delicacy? Weren't Republicans trying to boycott French goods during that whole "Freedom Fries" hoohah, and trying to align them with anti-Americanism? This has little to do with liberals versus conservatives and more to do with animal rights activism.
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2/18/2007 Luther "The Warriors did it!" Z. says:
I was actually eating at Hot Doug's (planning on consuming the banned delicacy) when I noticed a city health inspector at the store. I figured it was just their yearly visit, but when I spoke to one of the employees there, he informed me that in fact, someone had called the city to report them for selling the foie gras. The city employees seemed friendly enough and went about their business. They took the container from the prep area that contained the foie gras and then asked the employee to take them down to where the foie gras was located. The bag was tagged (not confiscated) and apparently, the city is going to follow up to let them know what to do with it. Moments after the city left, Doug waved the ticket in front of other customers, who I assumed were looking to enjoy the foie gras, but had to tell them that someone had reported it and that he had earned the first city issued citation for selling it. I really think it's funny that a "hot dog stand" is the battleground for a delicacy found only at some of the most upscale establishments in the city. Some places that serve foie gras make on one table what Doug makes in a day, yet he's willing to fight the ban and burdens associated with it. I only hope that other chefs in the city who were so upset about the ban will support Doug, and perhaps join the battle as well. As Jackson noted above, the burden of proof lies with the city in proving that the substance located in the cooler was foie gras, and additionally, he never had a chance to sell it since the inspectors were in the store right as they opened, and therefore he never sold foie gras, so is there really a case here?
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2/18/2007 Sara O. says:
I hadn't realized they were the first to get a ticket! That's hilariously retarded.
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2/18/2007 Matthew A. says:
1) the ducks wouldn't be alive if they weren't being raised for th foie gras. I don't understand why animal rights people don't get this key concept.

that is all, no more points.
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2/18/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
Sid- There is a case, as Doug's never ceased since the citation. And a photo of Doug's with his framed citation made it into the New York Times. Even I know, as I had the Rabbit sausage with the foie gras a couple of weeks ago.

Like Doug said, he was "poking the grizzly bear with the stick." I mean, this is a guy who plays The Rezillos in the restaurant. I'm sure he's taking this in good humor and a little frustration, and there's no doubt other chefs will back him--he's earned immense respect amongst the culinary crowd.

And I wouldn't belittle Hot Doug's as a "hot dog stand." As much as he plays it down, he's one popular motherfucker.
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2/19/2007 Edward H. says:
Yay for Doug! Let us eat whatever we want and let our arteries and God sort it out. Damn the man and damn the fucker that reported Doug! You guys are going straight to culinary hell! Get a life and also go get some veal!
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
does anyone know of a good way to get a listing of restaurants that are sneaking this into meals? So far I've found Cyrano's, Copperblue, and Allens. I want to make sure I am not accidentally patronizing any of these places
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2/19/2007 Edward H. says:
Here's a few more for your list.
http://metromix.chicag...
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
only one that I've noticed being very public about not serving it anymore is Trotter's, which stopped even before the ban, so he isn't really rolling over.
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2/19/2007 Edward H. says:
Trotter is the idiot that started this mess so he's off my want-to-try list.
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2/19/2007 Cindy K. says:
Write to the mayor and your alderman...
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
I don't think Trotter ever pushed for the ban, just had ethical problems with it and decided to stop serving it- at least that's how the old media stories on it sound. Good for him.
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2/19/2007 Natalie L. says:
Kelly, the law forbids the sale of foie gras, not the serving of it, so restaurants that give foie gras away as a complimentary item are not breaking the law. This might account for your view of "sneaking" it into meals.

I think it's also worthwhile to note that geese and duck used for foie gras have calcified esophaguses (esophagi? Ha) so to force feed them is not hurting or torturing them. Regular chickens are treated and killed in far less humane a manner than these animals. If you have an issue with all meat, that's fair, but I find it odd to pick and choose which poultry to protect and which to allow to be eaten because of a public relations gambit.
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
I have an issue with how they are all treated, so I will take whatever bans and penalties on producers the government will enact. I realize things will come in baby steps. I do not believe for a second that it isn't torture, no matter what bs line the industry comes up with for why they feel they are not actually hurting the animals. While I'm sure its exaggerated on the animals rights end of things, I'd be willing to bet quite a lot that the industry isn't being hoenst about the suffering it causes either. Hopefully this will one day lead to much broader protections for animals raised for consumption. I am not dumb enough to think change can happen all at once! I know it may seem like its inconsistent to get hung up on one issue, but its the extended length of the torture (what like 12 weeks of stuffing?) along with the fact that its simply an over the top delicasy, not a staple that people really count on for survival....it seems to be elitism at its worst
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
I really wonder why they have not found an articifial way to produce the same thing though, doesn't anyone else find it odd?
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2/19/2007 Natalie L. says:
But Kelly, it just tastes so damn good! ;-)
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
Honestly, I just wish people think for a minute- gee how would I like to have a pipe rammed down my throat every day for 12 weeks until my liver was on the verge of exploding....
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
No jeff, like I said, I realize things have to come in baby steps, and I'm not going to bitch and moan just because some delicacy can no longer be sold. What's wrong with wanting change while still accepting the fact that it can't happen as fast as it should? I'm so tired of people making that argument, that just because one practice is still allowed, that it makes it wrong for another one to be banned. As I've said MANY MANY times before, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with consuming meat, I just hate the fact that people don't give a shit how its produced, because not caring means nothing will ever be done about it- there will be no incentive until government steps in and enforces change. I do what I can in donating money to causes that seek better treatment of animals, writing to representatives, so does it make me a hypocrite if I have chicken every once in a while? If so oh well, but at least I give a rats ass about it
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
This issue is just the clearest example of the ridiculous feeling of entitlement that a person can come across every single day in this country...who cares if something suffers? Its more important we all get weird little dishes right? Its not even about basic food groups that every social group seems to rely upon, its about a topping for bread or however they serve it
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
I'm favoring the fois gras ban because I see this as a huge step in the right direction of enacting more stringent legislation on how animals raised for slaughter are treated. Like I said in the message before this, I don't think its hypocritcal to want change even if you know it is going to happen slowly if at all. And like I said, I do what I can to try to see it changed. And yes, I do cave and have chicken on rare occassions because lets face it, the human body needs all kinds of food sources to function properly, but that's not going to stop me from trying to get the situation changed to force better treatment, that is my simple hope. However, since its clear that the vast majority of people are more concerned about themselves and would rather turn a blind eye that will probably never happen.
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2/19/2007 Natalie L. says:
Kelly, it's not about a "weird little dish." It's about selective enforcement and what is considered an easy target by the animal rights groups. I understand your point of view, but I think that you should know that the vast majority of commercial chicken is mistreated in far worse ways than the ducks and geese raised for foie gras. Therefore, I feel that if you oppose the consumption of foie gras, you must oppose the consumption of non-free range chicken or else risk branding yourself as a hypocrite. The way foie gras is made is even better than most veal, but people don't go around asking for the banning of veal, now do they?

If you are against mistreatment for these animals, put your money where your mouth is and stop eating all animals who are raised in what you consider to be an inhumane fashion. To do otherwise is to fall victim to the latest dumb media fixation.

And like I said, if the pipe didn't actually hurt me and I was an animal with no higher intelligence, I wouldn't feel a thing different than any other animal about being a foie gras duck or goose. I didn't really want to get into it, but these animals, like so many others, are being raised to be killed for food. It's not as if they're companion animals that someone is stealing to make stew. I reserve my venom for the owners of puppy mills and pet stores that sell such animals, etc. If these animals were not being raised as food, they would not exist in the first place. Yadda yadda yadda.
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
And again, I do think the fact that this is a delicacy rather than a food staple that would be hard for the population to do without factors into the equation
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2/19/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
Kelly-

The reason a foie gras substitute hasn't been made is that there's little demand for it. And developing fake meat is hard to do well (my folks run a vegetarian meat distribution food service, so I've had it all). I think many of the folks who cherish foie gras find a thrill in the sheer decadence. It's a bit more of a delicacy than foundation meats like beef, pork, or chicken. Although, I've eaten a pretty good fake squid before.

It's true that foie gras is inhumane. Any animal involved in food production rarely gets treated well, even when marked as "organic" or farm-raised. At least with meat production, the animals lead a swift, hormone-pumped life and then put out of their misery. I'd say the inhumanity of foie gras is much like the dairy industry: just factory farms of milking--haha--the commodity for what it's worth.

I think if people paid more attention to how meat and dairy are consumed, I'd think it'd be pretty difficult to justify it on moral--and better yet--economic terms. But ignorance provides comfort, and we are a culture that embraces such comfort.

But in the broader perspective, we humans are certainly silly animals.
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
why are the puppies in the mills any different? just because they are cute and cuddly?
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2/19/2007 molly "skillionaire" c. says:
so, let me get this straight.

kelly, you are all up in arms about this issue, but you continue to eat meat and wear leather? are you vegan? does milking a cow violate it in some way?

free range chickens or tyson, they still are killed for your eating pleasure.

you are being one of the biggest hypocrites on this issue!!
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2/19/2007 molly "skillionaire" c. says:
so it's okay to kill animals for "food staples." even if it's terrible and wrong?
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
I understand that people think its hypocritical of me to continue to eat meat if I don't know where it comes from but does at least making efforts to support new legislation count for anything? I think it'd be rather difficult for me to actually become a vegetarian (ugh please no one tell me that fish used in sushi are tortured because that's really the only "animal" in my diet) because I do like the occasional turkey or chicken, but what would be so wrong with going for the best possible methods of raising and slaughtering the animals? does everything have to be about the bottom line? if so, all the more reason to have the government force change. And how can I know where a restaurant gets it poultry? or do i just have to refrain from eating it in restaurants because I can't know where it comes from?

I realize I am getting long winded here but there are very few things that make me sadder than the indifference with which humans can treat other living beings and how hopeless a cause it makes it seem

like vincent said though this is extra sad when its dragged out for 3 months!
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
Molly, I never said it was wrong to kill them, only wrong to let it happen in terrible ways if there are better ways to do it. What would people prefer, to be shot in the head or have your limbs pulled apart and be boiled alive. Yah, I thought so
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
And its a little less disgusting to me to kill them for real food rather than frivolous little delicacy's yes. Again, the obvious feelings of entitlement and getting out of hand in this country
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
I can't spell when I'm mad, my apologies
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2/19/2007 molly "skillionaire" c. says:
even free range chickens and turkeys are slaughtered.

and if you truly are against harming animals, fish goes out the window too. and leather and some types of wool and all animal byproducts...

i am just saying...if you REALLY want to do it, then do it all the way...not just selectively.
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
so anyway the frivolousness of it makes me think this ban is a sensible starting point.
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
Like I said, I'm not opposed to slaughter if its done and quickly and painlessly as possible. Its torturing them because its the cheapest way to go that should be changed
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2/19/2007 molly "skillionaire" c. says:
i think you are missing my point, but whatever.
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
Maybe I am misunderstanding, which part do you think I need to address more fully
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
honestly I think people are missing my point too which is that if people actually cared about the pain and torturing, something would probably be done. It makes me sad to see so little sympathy that these things can actually go on
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2/19/2007 Natalie L. says:
Kelly, I'm making the distinction between companion animals and animals that are raised for food--but beyond that, from the illicit films I've seen of chicken farms and puppy mills, puppy mills are worse in their treatment of the animals.

I get where you're coming from, totally. I hope you aren't taking this as people ganging up on you, because I don't think anyone has that intention. I just used to live with a vegan who made "exceptions" for certain things, and his hypocrisy just floored me. I think you do have the right idea but I don't think it's fair to single out one instance of animal "torture" and not others. I'm more concerned with the general ideas about foie gras and how they are distorted by the media to sell more papers, etc. It just seems like a dumb way to make "easy" points with certain of the politicians' constituents with no real regard for the treatment of animals in general. So I just don't like the use of this issue in the cynical manner in which it's being implemented in this city, right now. I don't think they really care about the animals, just the votes or the money in donations. That's my problem with this.
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2/19/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
Being an animal rights activists is extremely difficult, and definitely alters the way one looks at consumption and the broader scope of how the free market dictates how we make moral decisions. There's an endless amount of issues to think about besides dietary restrictions--what kind of horses were killed to make the glue in your sneakers, what was used to make the gelatin in the film that I'm watching, or what small ecosystem was destroyed in producing the vitamins Kelly's taking.

No one can be 100% vegan, even in our society, which can afford luxuries like Boca burgers. At least Kelly's compassion isn't so far extreme that it's hypocritical in the sense that compassion = violent retribution. I've had lots of friends go down that path and even those had to make eventual compromises.
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
Nicole, I completely respect that. The reason why I don't necessarily see this as inappropriately singling out one form of torture while ignoring others is because it seems like it has the potential to really open people's eyes about the other kinds of treatment that go on. Does that make sense? I'm not saying other practices are ok but foie gras is so much worse. I just think it can really do a good job of highlighting to people the issues and getting them thinking that maybe its not ok for them to ignore what goes on. I would be just as irked by your old roommates actions, and I CAN see how people might be reading my posts thinking I'm no different. I just feel like I'm in a bit of a hard place, because I don't have any desire to be a vegetarian, but rather am struggling with having very little I can do beyond what I already do in the hopes that things change. I know people say I should just stop eating any animals then but I don't particularly see that as the solution- the industry isn't going to pay attention to the opinions of vegetarians anyway, but might listen to actual customers who demand change.

Does this make any sense?

Thanks for your post Nicole- I know I am very guilty of getting fired up and losing it when it comes to animal rights issues, so someone else has to be level headed! :)
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
Thanks Vincent. Really that's all I would hope for- some degree of compassion. I don't think anyone can have perfectly logical views when it comes to animals- at the very least even those who would say they have no problem with methods of slaughter would feel quite differently if something like that was proposed for their pet. I know, not the greatest analogy, but do you all get what I mean? We euthanize our pets rather than giving them the degree of medical care that we'd give a human, and that's not wrong, but I think we'd care about how it was done- injection vs. gas chamber, etc. Those of us who have pets treat them like family, and would at the very least like to spare them undue pain, I just think every living being should be given that same consideration for their pain

Ok well now that its 7 and I'm still sitting at my desk like an idiot I should just shut up and donate more money to the ASPCA huh

Please don't think I'm a raving lunatic, oddly this is the only thing I get really really emotional about
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2/19/2007 Natalie L. says:
Kelly--I agree that we all need to work within the system to make a real change--the same goes for politics, in my mind. I guess all I would say is that the treatment of ducks and geese in the production of foie gras is not as bad as the day-to-day treatment of other poultry in mass production, although it's hard to see it that way with the force-feeding. At least these animals are not mutilated or penned with hundreds of other animals in the same cage--they are raised with care compared to commerical animals.

I see someone has bumped the NY foie gras ban thread--I'm halfway through it and there are some really enlightening posts on there about how poultry in mass production is treated. Just go in there and read it again if you want to know how much less suffering foie gras duck and geese actually endure compared to most poultry.

If you can afford it, I would just try and purchase free-range or naturally raised poultry if you can. In the end, it's the money that will make these industries change.
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2/19/2007 Natalie L. says:
Duh-commercial.
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2/19/2007 Kelly M. says:
Thanks for the tip on the NY thread!
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2/19/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
If someone can point me in the direction of finding free range Tauntauns, I would be much obliged.
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2/19/2007 Natalie L. says:
I think that by definition Tauntauns are all free range. They're just rare because of the encroaching Wampa population.
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2/19/2007 molly "skillionaire" c. says:
i personally like a nice crispy rancor...jabba and i LOVE those.
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2/19/2007 Edward H. says:
Man that's a lotta reading!

To answer Jeff T's question, it was Ald. Joe Moore (49th) who proposed the foie gras ban in April 2005 after reading about Charlie Trotter removing the delicacy from his menu at his four-star, self-named restaurant. Trotter felt it used the removal of foie gras as an excuse to whore his morals on TV to anyone that'd stop to listen while idiot politicians like Joe Moore tried to get free publicity by wasting our hard earn tax dollars on trivial bullshit such as what foods he'd like us not to eat.
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2/19/2007 Edward H. says:
BTW, enjoy your free range poultry :)

http://www.veganoutrea...
"The Associated Press reported on March 11, 1998:

Free-range chickens conjure up in some consumers minds pictures of contented fowl strolling around the barnyard, but the truth is, all a chicken grower needs to do is give the birds some access to the outdoorswhether the chickens decide to take a gambol or stay inside with hundreds or thousands of other birds, under government rules growers are free to label them free-range.

As all free-range animals are still viewed as objects to be killed for food, they are subject to abusive handling, transport, and slaughter. Free-range animals, like all animals used for their milk and eggs, are still slaughtered at a fraction of their normal life expectancy."
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2/20/2007 Luther "The Warriors did it!" Z. says:
Kelly likes to reframe arguments and attack the minute, unimportant details, while avoiding the big picture and tackling real issues. Arguing with her is a waste of time. Hypocrite seems to be an apt description.
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2/20/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
Sid, you're both being pretty sensational about it and running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Encased meat chickens, of course.
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2/20/2007 Kelly M. says:
Sid you can call me a hypocrite AAAAALLLLL you want. I don't know you, don't care to know you, and don't really care about your opinion about me. My only hope is that maybe I could sway even one person to listen to a different perspective and consider something OTHER than their own particular whims and fancies. Who are you to decide what's an "important" detail or not? You're entitled to your opinion about what is important, I'm entitled to mine. Frankly I think you are avoiding the big picture and focusing on whining about your right to do whatever the hell you please. Talk about the small picture. Boohoo.
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2/20/2007 Kelly M. says:
nice picture btw. Totally disgusting. I really hope I never have to run into you ever.
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2/20/2007 Kelly M. says:
I hope someone sees your threat on this thread to harm whoever reported the violation and your desire to either have them hit by a bus and die a slow painful death or have a pipe shoved down his throat. Talk about hypocrtitical if you are putting this out there as a nice form of torture for someone who felt an obligation to report violations of the law. Threatening physical violence against anyone should get you kicked out of this site, as it demonstrates a pretty sick and twisted tendency towards violence. Consider therapy for your rage
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2/20/2007 Luther "The Warriors did it!" Z. says:
You must be a terrible lawyer... misses the big picture, doesn't get sarcasm, compares the value of her grandmother's life to that of ducks, feels that some humans don't deserve help, and that in fact, ducks are more deserving of your sympathies than humans. Thanks for the recommendation for therapy, I'm sure you can refer me to a great therapist, considering you probably see more than one. On another note, thanks for the props on the pictures. I put that one up just for you.

I spoke of the human ability for reason or logic (neither of which you seem to possess) and that the ability to utilize these complex abilities of abstraction puts humans above other animals. You avoided that and suggested, quite histrionically, that I was suggesting offing your grandma because she couldn't use a computer. You still have not pieced together a logical argument against foie gras. The fact that you are not vegetarian, let alone a vegan is beyond me. I thought I was arguing with someone that considered themselves sensitive to the plight of animals, but as someone else noted, you are just hopping on the trendy media-fueled bandwagon of the popular cause of the day. You can sit here and cry your little heart out over duck livers and confront those who don't agree with you with "how would you like to have a pipe shoved down your throat" but the bottom line remains that you are a hypocrite, and until you stop using all products that come from animals, I'll no longer engage you in this argument. You can't sit here and tell us that you can't fathom how we lack sensitivity to the plight of animals, while you eat meat, wear leather, and use other products that have come about as a result of animals, animal testing, etc. You are really the worst kind of hypocrite. I don't even have a law degree and I'd go up against you in court, because based on what I see here, arguing a case against you would be a walk in the park. Enjoy my picture!
- 0 friends
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2/20/2007 Luther "The Warriors did it!" Z. says:
I've heard that:
You delete posts from people that don't agree with you
You delete friends from your list that don't agree with you
And now:
You want me to be kicked off the site for a sarcastic post about harm coming to those for reporting a place of business
You don't want other people to buy/eat something, because you don't agree with it.

Quite narcissistic of you. Everyone should do everything you do, think the way you think, be the way you are, and if they don't agree, face your wrath. You're a fascist. Your mindset better suits you to Germany between 1933-1945. You would have been one of the Reichsfurher's favorites!
2/20/2007

This Yelper's account has been closed.
- 158 friends
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2/20/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
Yes! And someone finally pulls the "fascist" punch.
I HATE MY DADDY, HERR FUHRER!

I'm so glad I got the popcorn.
- 203 friends
- 295 reviews
2/20/2007 Kelly M. says:
Sid all I could do was laugh at that. You read my comments how you want and obviously will continue to do so and ignore the main point of what I have been saying all along. If you can't see steps in progress, how can you possibly see a big picture? No, instead you whine that restraurants can no longer legally service you some ridiculous delicacy. Like I said, BOOHOO. Having so little compassion that you'd simply dismiss any of these practices as totally acceptable and not bothersome to you, rather than demand or at least hope something would be done to amend the situation is sad. It is frightening to me that you simply have no negative reaction to it at all, and rather sardonically put up a picture of the process instead and a sick joke. That is fucked up.
- 203 friends
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2/20/2007 Kelly M. says:
Hey Jackson read the first few posts in this thread and then try to tell me there is no threat of action against whoever was "nazi" enough to report the violation

I have never flagged a post that wasn't suggesting violence or spam from PR firms. So get your facts straight
- 203 friends
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2/20/2007 Kelly M. says:
calling my legal abilities into question is just plain stupid. My arguments have been all about having compassion rather than anything legal, I have no idea how this even gets into it. I realize there are people who dislike me and will read my posts however they want, so I just give up on this. I hope if you ever need someone to show you sosme compassion, you instead get the same self-centered lack of sympathy to your suffering that you show here.
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2/20/2007 Luther "The Warriors did it!" Z. says:
It wasn't a threat Kelly, it was a wish. Two different things. If I said I am going to ram a pipe down your throat or I am going to hit you with a bus, that's a threat. If I say that I hope that you get hit by a bus or that someone shoves a pipe down your throat, it's a wish... a dark, sarcastic wish at that. If you think so concretely that I would ever want that to happen to anyone, you're fucked up. Again... you're choosing to focus on the most insignificant thing I said and twist it to fit your argument. Fascist.
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2/20/2007 Kelly M. says:
you followed up that post a few down by asking if anyone had figured out where this guy lived. I think that's a pretty good reason to at least suspect you might be serious, especially since this site mostly consists of strangers who do not know each other's actual temperaments
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2/20/2007 Kelly M. says:
and its still a pretty gross wish to think up.
- 317 friends
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2/20/2007 Lindley E. says:
godwin's law always prevails on the internet.
http://en.wikipedia.or...
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2/20/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
There's an actual term for that? Wow.

That link didn't work, but I fixed it:
http://en.wikipedia.or...
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2/20/2007 Kelly M. says:
too funny. so true!
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2/21/2007 Lindley E. says:
Interesting article today in UK's Telegraph on "Ethical" Foie Gras:

http://www.telegraph.c...

But British gourmands are now to be offered an "ethical" version of foie gras, allowing them to savour the famed taste with a clear conscience.

The product, it is claimed, sidesteps accusations of -cruelty because it is not made by force-feeding birds.

advertisementHowever, the "ethical" foie gras does not come cheap, selling at 16 for just 2oz (70g). The same amount of traditional foie gras costs 10.

The new version avoids the process known as la gavage - force-feeding birds with grain by using a metal tube - by allowing geese to stock up on extra food naturally in preparation for their normal winter migration to Africa.

They are slaughtered once they have fattened themselves for their expected long flight south.
(it is produced in Spain)
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2/21/2007 Niki "Miss N" C. says:
My two cents:

1 cent: I heart Hot Doug & Doug Sohn. I heart that he's sticking up for something he obviously believes in.
2 cent: I don't heart force-feeding anything but the Olsen twins.

In other words, I don't know what I think about this.
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2/21/2007 Mike J. says:
It's so important to eat a hot dog made out of the fatty-diseased liver of a goose that has been force fed grain and oil?

A law is a law. Dayley's opinion is irrelevant. If I walk into some restaurant and see them breaking the law, you'd better believe I'll call the police on them. Doug can kiss my ass. Tell him to quit breaking the law.
2/21/2007

This Yelper's account has been closed.
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2/21/2007 Niki "Miss N" C. says:
Well, now that's a little harsh. There are a lot of laws that are ridiculous. For example, in our fair state of Illinois,
If you do not have at least one dollar bill on your person, you may be arrested for vagrancy.
You must contact the police before entering the city in an automobile.
The English language is not to be spoken. The officially recognized language is "American".

In Chicago, "All businesses entering into contracts with the city must sift through their records and report any business they had dealing with slaves during the era of slavery.
Law forbids eating in a place that is on fire.
It is illegal to give a dog whiskey.
It is forbidden to fish while sitting on a giraffe's neck.
Kites may not be flown within the city limits."
"It is illegal to fish in pajamas.
People who are diseased, maimed, mutilated, or "otherwise an unsightly or disgusting object" are banned from going out in public.
You may be convicted of a Class 4 felony offense, punishable by up to three years in state prison, for the crime of "eavesdropping" on your own conversation."

So Mike J, if I see you out flying a kite, it's cool if I call the police on your ass? If I see that you are diseased & out in public, you would have no problem with my calling the authorities? If you decide to go over by the lake one morning & cast a line while wearing your pjs, I'm justified in dialing 911? If, in conversation, you say something like, "This bloke's going to go to the loo; I have a problem with my arse," I can easily flag down the first officer I see to report you?

Devil's Advocate here.
2/21/2007

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2/21/2007

This Yelper's account has been closed.
- 38 friends
- 118 reviews
2/21/2007 Simone G. says:
My alcoholic dog is not going to like this whiskey law one bit
- 180 friends
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2/21/2007 Niki "Miss N" C. says:
Maybe we should have a big "Breakin' the Law, Breakin' the Law" Yelp party one of these days where we commit highly illegal activities like sitting atop giraffes while fishing, flying kites within the city limits (already did that ... in front of a cop no less ... I'm so cheeky), walking around without money, & calling each other "wankers."
- 317 friends
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2/21/2007 Lindley E. says:
sounds fun. And then we can invite Chris hanson in to bust us all.
- 67 friends
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2/21/2007 Ray "Legendary" L. says:
For the people that hate the Fois Gras ban, I'm curious to your stance on what animal cruelty is.
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2/21/2007 molly "skillionaire" c. says:
ray, DO NOT reopen this can o' worms.

for me, pretty please?
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2/21/2007 Ray "Legendary" L. says:
Is animal cruelty against the law? If animal cruelty is against the law, then how do you serve fois gras ethically? Is the law supposed to be ethical or is that a coincidence? I'm not taking a stance here because there's no way 1 or 2 people can win a debate against a mob.
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2/21/2007 Lindley E. says:
RAY...outta this thread now.
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2/21/2007 Ray "Legendary" L. says:
oh sorry Molly, ignore my last 2 posts
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2/21/2007 Lindley E. says:
um, for 'ethical foie gras' see my link above. No force feeding. That's what makes it ethical.
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2/21/2007 Ray "Legendary" L. says:
Lindley - good idea. I'm having a good day and not much good can come of people answering those questions. Please delete them if you're a mod.
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2/21/2007 Simone G. says:
would anyone be offended by my alcoholic dog... he's not so much a dog as he is human... kinda like brian from FAMILY GUY. (p.s. I actually do not have any pets living with me, I am allergic to dogs and cats... even the ones that people try to say are hypo-allergenic... to you I say LIAR!!!)
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2/21/2007 Simone G. says:
I bet i could get him to speak English
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2/21/2007 Ray "Legendary" L. says:
Lindley, I'll msg you in response to your article.
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2/21/2007 Lindley E. says:
please don't...please please don't...I don't really want to talk about it. I'm sure you've got great points. I linked the article b/c it seemed interesting, as we had previously defined foie as 'force fed'.

I will not engage in a debate about vegetarianism and animal cruelty. That's a zero-sum argument.
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2/21/2007 Niki "Miss N" C. says:
A hypo-allergenic, English-speaking, alcoholic dog?

Dig it.

& call David Letterman, not the cops.
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2/21/2007 Kathy R. says:
Lindley, who is the woman in your avatar? She scares me.
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2/21/2007 Ray "Legendary" L. says:
Just don't read the msg then, it's too late I already sent it. And you're right, it is a zero-sum argument and that's why I didn't choose to get involved in this 'debate/argument' or whatever you called it. I just wanted to see how far the logic of the people involved on the other side went. Your article was really interesting, good read but it did not settle the issue.

Anyways, the end. I'm not coming back into this thread.
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2/21/2007 Lindley E. says:
She scares me too....that's why I used her. She's the president of this professional organization. Her demeanor is as strange as her hair.
- 38 friends
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2/21/2007 Simone G. says:
I think i want to drink cianide for her
- 38 friends
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2/21/2007 Simone G. says:
i meant cyanide
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2/21/2007 Lindley E. says:
I hate my avatar but I cannot take my eyes away from the trainwreck that is Mrs. Marshall....
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2/21/2007 Mike J. says:
This thread is absurd. I never realized how many ignorant people lived in Chicago.

Chewbacca: I refuse to respond to the comments by you and others about driving one mile over the speed limit and how eating any kind of meat automatically makes one a hypocrite if they criticise foie gras consumption and production. It's the same tired argument people have been making for eons, that basically says you either have to have a perfect world or allow everything. By the same logic, why can't a guy go out and have sex with a 12 year old? The evil government is infringing on our rights to get laid any way we want to!

Dolts.
2/21/2007

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2/21/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
"By the same logic, why can't a guy go out and have sex with a 12 year old?"

How about serving a 10-year prison sentence when a 15-year old gives you a consensual blowjob--except you're only 17 in Georgia. Thank you, Sodomy Laws:

http://www.google.com/...

The public outcry was enough to amend the law with a "Romeo and Juliet" clause (12 months instead of 10 years) so that this doesn't happen again, but the council didn't make it retroactive, so this kid is pretty much screwed.

Doug purposefully broke the law because he disagrees with it. And, likewise, it's your right to call the cops on him when you see him do it. But what you're witnessing is public outcry from a law that many deem unfair. What is a democracy when we're not allowed to question our own laws?
2/21/2007

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2/21/2007 Kelly M. says:
I think the problem is that while I agree that for the most part that the government often legislates where there is no need, there are certainly areas where we can't count on the general public and/or consumers to do the right thing. They kind of have to be forced and then eventually come around. I know that's a pesimistic attitude but I think its shown itself to be true when it comes to unpopular causes. That's why there have to be laws forbidding states from preventing women from obtaining abortions, why there is a voting rights act, laws assuring equal funding for women's athletics, etc (I know I am getting way out there but its for illustration). So when a cause is unpopular, sometimes that is the only way to get a result; it seems like without these laws many situations we now take for granted wouldn't exist. Does that make sense? I appreciate you clarifying your views.

Honestly I doubt the city's prosecution of Doug will cost very much- kind of like a parking ticket- even if you contest it, you show up and are generally convicted anyway. My guess would be that these tickets operate the same way. I'd be interested to see on what basis opponents challenged the law- really it seems like the only way it would be overturned is if the city council got pressured into doing so itself, but I'll be watching to see what opponents come up with

As a side note- if people are big fans of Doug I wonder if they'd be willing to pay more for the foie gras dogs with that naturally produced foie gras discussed at the earlier link today. I kind of figured there was something like that out there.
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2/21/2007 Marc N. says:
Gah... is this still fucking going?

Kelly - stop eating meat.

Jeff - did you ever read that book I sent you? I'm guessing not by your responses here.

VC - thank you for being level-headed and compassionate. You are the voice of reason that I've always wished that I could be.

Jackson, Matthew, Mark, Gena - you're all fucking blinkered morons. Pull your heads out of your asses. Animals don't have feelings or higher intelligence? Humans are somehow placed 'above' animals because we're able to solve logic problems? Doesn't our ability to think suggest that we also have a responsibility to be compassionate?

Puppy mills are far less cruel than your average factory farm. So are the conditions that geese are raised in when foie gras is produced. Puppy mills get attention because puppies are cute (search Google for videos of puppies being boiled alive before being eaten in China... not related to American puppy mills but it is a nice primer on man's basic relationship with food animals.) Foie gras gets attention because, as Kelly said, it is low-hanging fruit. Factory farming doesn't get attention because it is so deeply ingrained in our culture that it is OK to raise a sentient being in conditions that amount to torture simply because it is cheaper/easier. I'll go ahead and recommend the 'Meet Your Meat' video again at this point.

In summation - yay for the law. Boo for the reasoning behind it. And boo to 'Hot' Doug for his incredibly transparent marketing stunt. Stop being a cunt. If you don't want to be fined, don't do something blatantly illegal just so you can paint yourself as some sort of martyr when it goes tits up.
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2/21/2007 Marc N. says:
Also - I said just about everything I had to say on this issue in the NY thread.
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2/21/2007 Vaughn "doublewhiskeycokenoice" C. says:
Marc, level headed, me? Maybe. Compassionate? Uhh, how about just cynical?

Like I said in an earlier post, I don't think Doug minds the fine, really as I'm sure $500 to him is pocket change--but this is speculation. I think Doug's rebelliousness is simply an act of civil disobedience to a law he disagrees with. He's not trying to be a martyr, just simply disagreeing with dissent. And that dialog is what this country was founded on.

The rabbit sausage with foie gras I ate a couple of weeks ago was $8. I would have definitely paid $9 or 10 for it if it were humane foie gras (although I'm still skeptical about how "humane" it really is). And I think most of the people who support Doug wouldn't mind paying a little extra.

There's really two issues clashing here: 1) animal cruelty and 2) the right of the government to regulate a small business decision. And it's conflicting. I would be safe to assume that Sid S. isn't going to go out and kick a puppy tonight, just because he can. But he's also upset that the government is regulating one of his freedoms and that's his reality.
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2/21/2007 Natalie L. says:
To Ray and Mike J: if you can't be bothered to read the several logical posts made by me and others clarifying how foie gras is actually more humane than most poultry grown and processed on factory farms and how this law is not really about animal cruelty but to cynically capitalize on media sensationalism to get donations and votes, then you don't deserve any real response to your trolling posts.
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2/22/2007 Lindley E. says:
Hi Marc, nice to see you back!
______________________________ ________

Back to the thread:

Ugh, please let's not get into this discussion again...there are impassioned statements from both sides, both with valid points. This discussion always boils down to the same things (V is vegetarian or Vegan, O is omnivore)

V. Meat is cruel
O. I like meat and I am a carnivore
V. Meat is still cruel
O. Some kinds of meats are less cruel than others
O'. By the way, the chicago law is stupid
V. Fuck you
O. Fuck you too

with the law, there is a new variant
O: It is cool that doug committed an act of civil disobedience, because the law is stupid and foie is good
V: The law isn't stupid because the practice of making foie is cruel and doug is a jerk
O: Fuck you
V: fuck you too

Unless there is something else to add, I think we are done.
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2/22/2007 Kelly M. says:
Lindley well said :)
5/26/2007

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5/26/2007 Niki "Miss N" C. says:
As a V, I don't agree with the "fuck you" or the "doug is a jerk" statements.

;)
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5/26/2007 Astronomer Joe ""Father of the modern day Apocolypse & Pie"" G. says:
Liver...is the body's filter, collecting the toxins and other detritis that the organic body has to offer.

Why would anyone in their right mind would want to eat liver...in any form, with or without onions?

Might as well scoop up a handful of water from a dumpster and relish.

Joe
5/26/2007

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5/26/2007

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5/26/2007

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5/26/2007 Jessica M. says:
Having a law against foie gras is the same as having a law against dogfighting. The only difference is the socioeconomic status of the deprived parties.
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5/26/2007 Kristin P. says:
I disagree with dogfighting = foie gras. Cruelty imposed in dog fighting lasts throughout an animal's life, and the "sport" is violent and bloody and affects the humans involved as well, desensitizing them to violence and brutality. It also stigmatizes entire breeds of dogs that are subsequently banned, euthanized, and treated miserably. Geese are force fed for weeks, rather than their entire life, and are otherwise not treated violently. No one is out there banning geese from being adopted. I see the point, but I think that comparison minimizes the brutality of dog fighting.
5/26/2007

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5/26/2007 Andrea H. says:
what is also frustrating is that i am going to be attending a culinary school in chicago, with a french-based program, but i am going to have a hole in my repetoir because of this foie gras ban. i mean, who trains as a french chef but never gets to work with foie gras? oh yeah, the ones in chicago. weep.
5/26/2007

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5/26/2007 Andrea H. says:
ahh, wonderful, on all accounts. its such a ridiculous ban. if the smoking ban in pittsburgh can be struck down by courts, than i have very little doubt that a foie gras ban can stand up much longer in chicago. thanks for the info, j.r., i was honestly very worried about not working with the foie.
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5/29/2007 Natalie "boing boing" R. says:
I'm not too worried. Chicago's government is so on top of things.

Last week, they forwarded a woman's outraged editorial against possibly repealing the foie gras ban to my email box instead of the W-9 form I had requested.
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6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
I support the ban on foie gras. If Hot Doug's willfully violated the ban, they should be fined.

In principal, I agree that people should have the right to eat what they want. But food is not just eaten: it must also be produced, and a few foods--namely foie gras--are produced by making geese suffer horribly. To buy foie gras is to fund this torture.

You don't care about geese, you say? Then I have an offer for you: come down to hyde park, where there are plenty of geese. They are very easy to catch. I will pay you $50 to grab one and kill it, and I will pay any city fines that might result from this act.

I doubt any of you foie gras fans can do it. Message me and set up a time to do this. Prove me wrong and earn $50.
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6/27/2007 Mark S. says:
I'm a foie gras fan. And I don't believe the government should pass laws controlling what we eat- they should go after the people who are actually doing the unethical acts (if that's what they believe foie gras production is). I'm 100% against the government use of the entire population as a tool to get at the producers.

Perhaps just importantly, as I said previously, one makes a logical error applying the same weight to the terms "torture" and "suffer" in reference to animals as we do to humans- humans and animals are drastically different! Animals have no consciousness or sense of self- an analog "self" is a prerequisite for suffering. Humans can "lose their mind" as a result of torture- animals can't- they just learn to act a different way (often ways that seem very unnatural of course). Most animals ceratainly lack complicated language and the associated brain evolution, psychology and higher/more complicated forms of thinking that humans have.

As far this foie gras fan killing a goose- I personally wouldn't have any problem making supper out of one, but I'm not a big fan of goose meat in general, or killing animals that have been domesticated from interaction with humans in parks. If I enjoyed killing domesticated animals I suppose I'd have become a farmer or gotten a job in a meat packing or foie gras plant. That wasn't my calling, but not because this foie gras fan "couln't do it." I've killed and cleaned animals before, and think it's an important experience in learning to understand what it means to eat meat.
6/27/2007

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6/27/2007 Chris S. says:
They can go after foie gras (which I like) producers, as soon as they go after the companies that produce beef and chicken. I'm tired of hearing about how inhumane foie gras is by the same people that have no problem stopping by McDonalds for lunch. If you think force feeding geese is less humane than taking a bolt gun to the back of a cows head (sometimes it takes a few tries) or forcing a chicken to live it's life in a coop it can't stand up in, you are dilusional. How our food is produced is never a pretty picture and you can't just pick and choose what is, and isn't humane. Most of it isn't.
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6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
Mark,

I agree that ultimately the producers must be punished. However, as agricultural interests have massive control at the necessary regulatory level, it is unlikely they will be. Until that happens, it makes sense for communities to articulate moral judgments to the extent they can. For example, the US can not stop ivory from being poached in Africa, but we do ban its import into the US. This is exactly analogous.

The assertion that "animals have no consciousness" hinges on your definition of consciousness. Animals can suffer; their neural mechanisms for doing so do not differ appreciably from humans. If you believe a dog can't suffer as much as a human, I invite you to bring a dog down to hyde park. I will watch as you torture it. Then try to tell me that wasn't torture, and then try to sleep at night.

Hey, why not a monkey, or a chimp, or a person? I do not believe we are ethically *equivalent* to animals, but the moral repugnance of torture does not stop at some arbitrary node of the phylogenetic tree. If an animal can suffer to all appearances, it is wrong to to

As far as your comments on adaptive mechanisms go, you are correct. However, humans do the exact same thing. So much so, in fact, that psychologists and neuroscientists frequently use animal models to study human responses to trauma. For all our talk of "higher" (whatever that means) sensibilities, the reaction to extreme trauma is basically indistinguishable.

The assertion that it is somehow less ethical to hurt a "domesticated" animal than a factory farmed one is so baseless as not to merit argumentation. Ask yourself: how did I possibly come to this conclusion?

The fact that you have "killed and cleaned" animals says nothing about how you should morally assess the practices in factory farms. It is perhaps a testament to your abstract moral consistency, but certainly not a defense of foie gras.
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6/27/2007 Mik "Put your left foot in...put your left foot out..." W. says:
Take I-90 from Minneapolis to Seatte Andrew C, and county how many "humane" slaughterhouses you find. Cows and chickens by the millions are bred then slaughtered for our benefit. Get off your hippy-assed soapbox.
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6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
MW,

Your hostile tone is not constructive. I find it hurtful, and inhibitory of rational debate. I will have you know that I do not consume any animal products, nor do I buy anything that shows signs of animal exploitation.

Foie gras is such an extreme example of cruelty that I find it ethically mandatory to ban its consumption.

As I'm sure you'll agree, we have no way of knowing which of those slaughterhouses are actually "humane," and even so, the vast majority of animal products available are not slaughtered humanely.

I do not believe I am "better than you" for my ethical assessments. But I do believe it is wrong to sponsor cruelty to animals, and it would make me (and, I would offer, you) happier if you stopped doing so.
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6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
Chris,

I totally agree with you: many foie gras opponents are highly hypocritical, and I do not defend their hypocrisy.

But not all food necessitates suffering. Plant-based foods already comprise most of our caloric intake. They do not require animals to suffer, not do they exact the frightful environmental tolls of large-scale animal agriculture.

I will not defend *any* unnecessary cruelty vested on animals. But foie gras requires significantly more suffering per serving than almost any other food one can find, except perhaps veal. So I don't believe that eating a McDonald's hamburger is morally equivalent to foie gras.
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- 59 reviews
6/27/2007 Mik "Put your left foot in...put your left foot out..." W. says:
Andrew, good thing you don't eat animal products, more for the rest of us! Unfortunately you do imply you're better than us - this is why you've gotten so many responses in a short amount of time. As humans we consume - and we consume everything. And like you wrote, yes you wrote that this is an "extreme example of cruelty" so I guess reasonable cruelty is okay? Just want to know....
6/27/2007

This Yelper's account has been closed.
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
John C,

OK. When do you want to come down to HP? My hours are flexible, but I need advance notice of a day.

I don't appreciate your comment about "vegan hippy [sic] liver" for the following reasons:
1) I'm not a hippie. In fact, I am a researcher at Argonne in genetic engineering.
2) The comment is threatening and hostile. It's intent was to make me mad or scared. Such actions do not contribute to a rational discussion of ethics.
3) The comment is untrue. Assuming it were legal, I seriously doubt you would be able to kill me for my putatively delicious liver. If you did kill me, I doubt you would enjoy eating it. If you think you would enjoy eating it, I feel very sorry for you.

I'm sure your instinct toward these remarks is to claim that I "don't have sense of humor." I urge you to investigate what made you want to say something that violent. I'd bet the source of this hostility is far from humorous, so I don't see any humor in your comments.
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
MW,

There is a difference between saying a certain *choice* is morally correct, and saying that the *people* who make that choice are somehow "better." I do my best to"love the sinner and hate the sin." If I implied that I thought I was better than you, or if I came across that way, I am sorry. I am trying to make a moral argument here, not judge anyone.

Whenever I find myself feeling "superior," I remind myself that I ate meat for 22 years. I do not think I was a being bad person then, but I'm happy I don't eat it now. Similarly, I don't think you're a bad person for eating meat, but I would be happy if you stopped.

And no, I do not think any unnecessary cruelty is ethical. I think that the government must show proper restraint in enforcing its ethics, so only the most clear-cut ethical violations should be codified as law. Foie gras necessitates such a cruel practice that I support a ban on it.
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
JR,

I think I don't enjoy eating dead animals.

I mean, I like how meat tastes, but I don't really see it as food anymore. Once I allowed myself to stop feeling all defensive about my meat-eating, I realized I didn't even want the stuff.

Eating meat for me is like that 7th pack of cheez doodles for an obese person. I don't really want it at all, and I wouldn't even enjoy the consequences of eating it, or even the process. Once the person really realizes this, and reminds themselves of it, it becomes easier to lose weight.

--AC
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
We actually had this discussion with a real, live vegetarian about 6 months ago on yelp. And it was just as heated then as now. And no one changed his/her mind.

Andrew, it is a losing battle. Quit before the meat-eating masses riot. Oh, and post a little avatar. People may even like you better for not seeming an anonymous questionmarkhead.
- 48 friends
- 59 reviews
6/27/2007 Mik "Put your left foot in...put your left foot out..." W. says:
Thank you Lindley, this is all true as evident from the reactions above. It's the same with other aspects of life (some much more relevant than this discussion). People by nature are set in their ways and a condescending behavior won't change others.
6/27/2007

This Yelper's account has been closed.
- 203 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Ronnie "More Cowbell" R. says:
Agreed Lindley However I think our genetic engineer friend has too many similarities with Joe L. Not saying he is , but its a bit strange is all?. Hey Andrew do you find that you use the letter "I" an awful lot? Perhaps I'm thinking?. Not to be rude but preachy is so passe around here these days!

My opinion is, I say good for Hot Doug's for sticking (it) to their stuffed geese. Its a barbaric thing to see how you get this delicacy, but if you cry over this why not over so much more,"meat is murder" etc etc. Most of us dont want to admit that we would never want to kill, clean and cook our own food/livestock. We like that its packaged and processed for our convenience, and I think in our "civilized" world, its all fair game, pun intended :)
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
I did notice that the style of writing and sentence construction were pretty similar to Joe L's. Additionally, the way this person has jumped onto a controversial thread just to stir muck was Joe L's MO.

Hmmm. I smell something fishy...or is it meaty?
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
MW and Lindley,

I do think that people change their minds, and I do think that discussion plays a part in that. I realize it is not easy or quick, and I don't expect to be a major catalyst in your moral decision-making. You make your own choices, and lots of factors ranging from culture to reason to random noise impact your choices.

If you do eventually decided to become vegetarian or vegan, it is hard to test whether my remarks impacted your decision. For my part, I can say that conversations with vegans--in which I often felt as indignant and attacked as you do--eventually started working on me.

There is no nice way to tell someone "I think you're doing something wrong, and you should stop." But I do think that there is a point in saying so. As those who eat such things say, "you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs." Similarly, it's hard to challenge the ethical merits of a common practice without seeming supercilious. It is a risk I'm willing to take.

I'm not convinced that this is a losing battle. Many other moral changes, from abolition to womens' suffrage to decolonization, came at the price of lots of unpleasant interactions with adamant adherents to the status quo. The fact that you haven't become vegetarian does not mean that talking to you is futile.

Thanks for your suggestion about a picture. I'll post one.

Also, I think that I have been less condescending (and certainly less hostile) than most posters in the past half hour, MW included. Please stop.
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
Sure sounds like Joe L...returned.

Joe L, is that you?
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
And no, people on internet forums -- at least yelp -- do not change their minds. Arguing on the internet about politics, religion, and vegetarianism is futile here.
- 81 friends
- 378 reviews
6/27/2007 Sarah "I can too have it all!" B. says:
but oh so fun, lindley
;)
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
I have no idea who Joe L is. You can find me on facebook to verify that I am in fact Andrew Cone.

Lindley: I certainly don't expect you to change your mind soon, nor do I expect to be a significant agent in your doing so. You do not know how you will feel in 5 or 10 years, and you certainly can't speak for the thousands of other people on yelp.

I have changed my mind about all sorts of things ranging from programming preferences to political beliefs as a result of reading other peoples' comments. Often when I first read them, I feel mad and dismissive, and sometimes I stay feeling that way. But sometimes I am able to let what those people are saying sink into my head, and when I do, I find I profit by it.
6/27/2007

This Yelper's account has been closed.
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
Andrew, whether or not you are joe l, you sound exactly like him. I love how you make assumptions about where I stand based on my statement that arguing is futile. I may very well be vegan - but sensible enough to recognize that arguing on the internet about certain subjects is idiotic.

And you know Joe L also liked to give us his last name to prove he was real.
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
Ronnie,

I totally agree with you. Most people don't want to deal with where there food comes from. But I don't think the solution is complete moral abandon. We don't have to eat stuff that hurts animals: we can choose not to.

Interestingly, I *have* killed other mammals, and I'm quite aware that I am capable of doing it again. I choose not to.
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
Ronnie,

I totally agree with you. Most people don't want to deal with where there food comes from. But I don't think the solution is complete moral abandon. We don't have to eat stuff that hurts animals: we can choose not to. If we want fewer animals to suffer, we have to start somewhere, and foie gras is as good a place as any.

--AC
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
Andrew C could not be more Joe L if he tried!

to wit:

"Interestingly, I *have* killed other mammals, and I'm quite aware that I am capable of doing it again. I choose not to."
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
Sorry about the duplicate post.
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
Also -- Joe C would begin every post by writing the name of the person he was responding to...
- Elite '12
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- 1150 reviews
6/27/2007 Ellen "like some modern-day Gypsy landslide" M. says:
I'm sure those other mammals had low IQs, and were vapid and pretentious.
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
I mean joe l... sorry joe c
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
Lindley,

My resemblance to Joe L. is not really relevant.

I did not assume you weren't vegan. A brief glance at your profile makes it clear you are not vegan, and probably not vegetarian. Why not be open about relevant details, rather than hiding behind what *you* assume I do or don't know.

Again, how about dealing with what I'm actually arguing, rather than trying to exploit every figment of rhetoric that could be construed as condescending or whatever.

--AC
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
don't forget that they were cliquey!
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
Ellen,
I'm not proud of having killed those animals. Your sarcasm is not helpful.
--AC
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
Am I cliquey?
- Elite '12
- 380 friends
- 1150 reviews
6/27/2007 Ellen "like some modern-day Gypsy landslide" M. says:
I've got to say this: this is among the best performance art I've ever seen.
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
Actually, you are Joe L, andrew. It is relevant. You argue exactly like Joe L, you write like Joe L...you get defensive like Joe L...

And arguing is irrelevant on this topic, Joe. You will not change minds.

if it quacks like a duck....
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
The more he writes, the more Joe L he gets.

hey Joe, do you sleep on down pillows?
- 118 friends
- 259 reviews
6/27/2007 Kathy R. says:
Andrew - have you ever wielded a shotgun in front of government officials?
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
Maybe 20 cops?
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
Hey Andrew, is it humane to threaten one's own life -- with an audience of 20 or so?
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
OK, I have to get work done now, so I can't continue this thread, at least not right now.

If you want to talk with me more, please message me directly, and I'll reply later today.

I ask that y'all look at how much people avoided actually dealing with the ethical issue. Everything from my diction to my picture to my alleged resemblance to Joe L became the topic at hand. Several people did their best to get me mad, and succeeded in making me mildly annoyed.

As far as this Joe L business goes, you can look me up on facebook to verify who I am. Or look me up in the U of C or Argonne directories. Or be proud of yourself for uncovering the villainous vegan impostor. Whatever.
- 118 friends
- 259 reviews
6/27/2007 Kathy R. says:
"y'all"?
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
Quack!
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
There's a literal-mindedness to the writing that is exactly Joe L. Funny stuff.
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
Andrew, why don't you give us your U of C email address and we can write back and forth...that will verify your identity, right?

And we can be pen pals and best friends~!
- 155 friends
- 66 reviews
6/27/2007 Dan "de facto Consigliere" M. says:
Lindley may not speak for the thousands on Yelp, but I'll back what she's got to say.

Thousands of years of evolution has provided us with canines and incisors, and meat is one of the most readily-available sources of protein that our bodies need to grow, repair themselves, et cetera. Conclusion- we were born to be omnivores.
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
ok... i couldn't resist looking at the messages again.

lindley: i've messaged you my email address. i don't want to post it in the open because
a) there's lots vitriol and insecurity here, and i don't partiuclarly relish the idea of hate mail,
and b) the spambots will get it.

--ac
- 118 friends
- 259 reviews
6/27/2007 Kathy R. says:
No listing for an Andrew Cone at Argonne:

http://www.anl.gov/dir...
- 317 friends
- 851 reviews
6/27/2007 Lindley E. says:
Well, the address he sent did work...it was a legit uchicago address...

Hey andrew, wanna post your drivers license?
- 9 friends
- 22 reviews
6/27/2007 Andrew C. says:
Wow... you guys really are obsessive. Anything to discredit the vegan, no matter how irrelevant! Your suspicion speaks volumes about the honesty with which you have approached this thread.

I am indulging this childish drivel because I want you know that I have nothing to hide and no reason to lie. Logic need not be buttressed with mendacity. You vegan-haters are palpably insecure, and this pathetic bullying is your way of showing it.

If you must know, I am paid by uchicago, so I have some weird status at Argonne. In this sense I'm not a "real" employee, and I guess that's why I don't show up in the directory. If anyone would really like more confirmation of either my argonne status, i can put you in touch with the appropriate people. Just message me.

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